Some observations on TCMA

[RenDaHai]

This is not a TCMA block:



If you use these techniques, you are not doing TCMA (at least not at that moment).

In Shaolin its called Yun ding (cloud covers the peak of the mountain). Its one of the most common techniques and appears in just about every form in Shaolin and a great deal in northern longfist styles.

Appears in the southern styles a lot too....



In the middle, how do you think this move is applied? The opponent is to one side, not in front. In the large frame the hand is above the head, in the small frame the hand touches the head.

[EarthDragon]

Bacon...

whats your professional record? what UFC were you in? before you put down someone who as you said "doesn't have good record" not an amazing fighter you should post your record and skills.

do you think he could whoop you?

the reason he only had 4 pro fights is he left professional fighting due to a tear in his retina and doctors told him he could go blind if he got hit in the head again, so someone whom has accomplished far more than you perhaps you should hold your tongue. unless of course you want to post your professional or amateur record or how about just a video of you fighting

[EarthDragon]

His official record is 2-4-1 and he's not exactly an amazing fighter. Certainly not someone you want to hold up as the shining star of TCMA. Not to mention that back in those days there were fewer worthy opponents and he didn't exactly win against anyone of note, even considering the time period.

the above quote from bacon.


so again bacon who have you fought? have you ever fought or are you just blabbing your opinion
so your saying the first UFC 1 -10 didnt have worthy opponents? LOL would you consider yourself a worthy opponent?

another armchair mouth boxer dale

[MightyB]

they all spar bro

The difference is in how they sparred and what they trained. We don't have the intestinal fortitude to do the training that was ancient Chinese military kung fu.

Again, I have nothing to base this on other than speculation, but what happens in a modern kwoon probably isn't even remotely close to how a true Chinese warrior trained. My guess is that there was a lot of weapons sparring, very little forms work and they were rudimentary forms consisting of a few moves, and lots of hard contact. That would be the formal instruction, the rest would be conditioning.

I doubt the individual moves would've been much different than what we pantomime in modern forms - the difference would've been in intent and execution.

[MightyB]

What I'm coming to grips with is what people have been saying on these forums for a long time. And that is TCMA is different. TCMA isn't about fighting. This isn't a positive or negative statement. It's just a statement. TCMA has evolved into what it is today. And that evolution is varied among different schools and lineages. Take it for what it is, enjoy it or don't.

[jdhowland]

What I'm coming to grips with is what people have been saying on these forums for a long time. And that is TCMA is different. TCMA isn't about fighting. This isn't a positive or negative statement. It's just a statement. TCMA has evolved into what it is today. And that evolution is varied among different schools and lineages. Take it for what it is, enjoy it or don't.

And that's pretty much why I brought this thread on in the first place. TCMA can have as much fighting skill as you want to get from it. But a Chinese lineage has much more associated with it.

It cannot really be compared with sporting competitions because they serve different publics and different purposes.

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

In Shaolin its called Yun ding (cloud covers the peak of the mountain). Its one of the most common techniques and appears in just about every form in Shaolin and a great deal in northern longfist styles.

Appears in the southern styles a lot too....



In the middle, how do you think this move is applied? The opponent is to one side, not in front. In the large frame the hand is above the head, in the small frame the hand touches the head.

Not even the same thing. Your guy is elbows out, palms up. The guy I posted is protecting his face. Your guy's face is unprotected.

The guy you posted is doing something that looks like the intro part to gung gee fook fu kuen.

It's not a valid response to take an ambiguous drawing from a TCMA text that looks similar to a MMA technique and say it's the same thing.

[taai gihk yahn]

Not even the same thing. Your guy is elbows out, palms up. The guy I posted is protecting his face. Your guy's face is unprotected.

The guy you posted is doing something that looks like the intro part to gung gee fook fu kuen.

It's not a valid response to take an ambiguous drawing from a TCMA text that looks similar to a MMA technique and say it's the same thing.

here ya go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTA3gkOf29E

I allow it's not exactly the same, and frankly aspects of it are a bit of a contrivance, but it's pretty similar

[Bernard]

[QUOTE=jdhowland;1205748]

A good teacher can pass on great techniques through forms practice I feel...QUOTE]

So even if a system is incomplete it still retains value in what is passed on structurally?

I tend to agree. My first sifu said that every teacher will show you what he wants you to learn, but it is up to you to fill in the gaps (what he didn't know or held back from teaching). This can be done with enough experience.

I think this is where training in a traditional system has an advantage over going it alone. Past experience is built into the structure of the training.

Two of my teachers strongly disagreed, believing that only those with considerable fighting experience can truly reveal a system. I see the point in this, but the fighting experience doesn't have to come from the same school, and there are many problems associated with sparring only within the same "style."

Can a system that has lacked real fighting experience for a couple of generations be returned to its combative roots?

I've given this question some thought. I believe its possible. One of the most important things my first (and main) teacher taught is to think for myself.

After I left his school, I dabbled in quite a few martial arts. And without exception, I feel kung fu help me pick things up faster. For example, my classmates in a jujitsu school told me they were amazed at how easy I pick up the joint locks and how effortless I made it look. Thing is my kung fu teacher didn't spend a whole lot of time on locks!

I believe the way he taught forms ingrained certain principles of movement that made it almost second nature for me when it came to qin na.

[RenDaHai]

Not even the same thing. Your guy is elbows out, palms up. The guy I posted is protecting his face. Your guy's face is unprotected.

The guy you posted is doing something that looks like the intro part to gung gee fook fu kuen.

It's not a valid response to take an ambiguous drawing from a TCMA text that looks similar to a MMA technique and say it's the same thing.

How is his face unprotected? I told you the opponent is to one side, not infront, the elbow is protecting the face. This technique is used as shielding the face with the elbow, how is that different?

The elbows are in a similar position if you take into account the stance with respect to the opponent. Remember, you don't stand in front of someone in Ma bu, it is used side on the vast majority of the time.

The difference is this guy is raising both elbows as opposed to one.

It is used to block in the same way as the guy in the photo is blocking. In the small frame your hand touches the back of your head, the action is performed like brushing the hair back.


The drawing is not even slightly ambiguous to someone who knows the technique.

[RenDaHai]

here ya go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTA3gkOf29E

I allow it's not exactly the same, and frankly aspects of it are a bit of a contrivance, but it's pretty similar

Pertinent video. It is the same if you were to use one hand. In the video he is using two and doing the perfect version where you step in and hit them with it as well. But when I have tried this technique Often you can't get in fast enough and what happens is you just end up blocking. But the block is just like the guy in the photo is blocking. And it is an effective block.

This appears just as often with just 1 hand, Dan yun ding as opposed to Shuang Yun ding (double cloud peak).

[wenshu]

TCMA isn't about fighting.

I've been saying this forever; gong fu hasn't been about fighting since the Ming dynasty, Ming-Qing transitional at the latest.

Everyone gives the Cultural Revolution all the credit for destroying gong fu but a bunch of teenagers running around the countryside sloganeering, destroying statuary and dumping buckets of red paint on people ain't shit compared to nearly three centuries of Mongorian oppression buttressed by nearly a century of civil war and Japanese occupation. Puny humans and their truncated historical memory.

[wenshu]

looks suspiciously like gong bu chong quan to me

IF, shut the fuck up, you don't know shit about boxing and even less about gong fu.

[RenDaHai]

We have all had this argument too many times;

Please, if you are genuinely interested in fighting then there is one thing you must understand. Fighting is about VIOLENCE (something we don't actually talk about enough).

When it comes to violence there are many kinds, but two fundamental types that we see in all nature: Territorial and Predatory.

Although one may become the other, they are not as similar as many of you seem to think.

The reason Traditional Martial Arts look different to Sport Martial Arts is because they deal with different types of violence.

You will never have an art that is equally equipped for both.

[Bernard]

We have all had this argument too many times;

Please, if you are genuinely interested in fighting then there is one thing you must understand. Fighting is about VIOLENCE (something we don't actually talk about enough).

When it comes to violence there are many kinds, but two fundamental types that we see in all nature: Territorial and Predatory.

Although one may become the other, they are not as similar as many of you seem to think.

The reason Traditional Martial Arts look different to Sport Martial Arts is because they deal with different types of violence.

You will never have an art that is equally equipped for both.

Nicely stated....