Wu Sau: Positioning, Reference and Gate Stratagy

[Vajramusti]

@Yoshiyahu

The idea is presented in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODmA3MsS9kU

It's holding the wu-sau near the inside shoulder, rather than on the center, reducing the opponent's options and facilitating interception.

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A comment on appearance.
Looks like a jerky imitation of wsl.

[LFJ]

OOh i disagree then....

I can see doing it for training to make you faster maybe...but not realistic in sparring.

If your hands are all on one side...then Im not going to attack straight either imma hit your open gate...since its wide open why go to the center when i can hit you with a Hook?

Who says you can? It's not really "open" but a baiting guard and you're taking the bait, throwing a slower attack opening your center. Looks like it works on you.

[Yoshiyahu]

Who says you can? It's not really "open" but a baiting guard and you're taking the bait, throwing a slower attack opening your center. Looks like it works on you.

Okay well imo that will slow down your WC...For chi Sau maybe or drill...But when fighting I want my centerline covered. So my opponent doesn't have that many options. A round punch will be more powerful but not as quick as a straight punch...With my gaurds obstructing the centerline it makes it hard for him to throw a head on jab...If i continue facing him he has no choice but to circle and go for the outside gate...The fastest route from point A to B is a straight line...So I will destroy his circle while he is movement to get a gate...

[LFJ]

Okay well imo that will slow down your WC...

How?

But when fighting I want my centerline covered. So my opponent doesn't have that many options.

Your opponent would have more options, striking on either side of your guard, rather than only one. That's the point of this guard, to reduce their options making it predictable and more easily intercepted.

A round punch will be more powerful but not as quick as a straight punch...With my gaurds obstructing the centerline it makes it hard for him to throw a head on jab...

A straight punch should be the easiest thing to deal with in WC.

If i continue facing him he has no choice but to circle and go for the outside gate...

People you spar/fight only throw round punches at you? A straight punch can also come from the outside, or can blast through the center.

With the wu-sau off center the opponent will only come down one side, and your response will be to intercept punching to the center.

[Happy Tiger]

This stratagy can work if the conditions are right but giving up your right of center arbitrarily is a gambit. Not a sure thing. I can see this perhaps being a default for some that cannot react equally left or right, which includes many. Personally I can react exactly the same either side. With my center covered flexibly but firmly, dispite each side a possible entry, to me there is only one choice. Upper middle and lower gate is the same. They must go round and take the time and upset to embark. Jeet with this structure is automatic with little or no movement commitment or finess. Like a cow catcher it works without mechanics, stratagy or intricate function. Beautiful and totally VT.

[wingchunIan]

With the wu-sau off center the opponent will only come down one side, and your response will be to intercept punching to the center.

IMO this is dangerous thinking possibly borne of only training against attacks that come in straight lines. Given the human anatomy you can either cover left, cover right or cover centre. If you push both of your hands so far to one side (and it has to be both hands) that you can prevent attacks from that side including angled shots and hooks then you will by default have exposed not just the other side but also the centre. Holding wu sao as per the original post does nothing to prevent a hook coming outside of the none wu sao arm and so does not preclude attack to that side. It does however make it nigh on impossible to defend any type of hook coming in from the wu sao side due to teh distance needed to be covered. It is of course each to their own but FME the benefit of covering the centre is that it precludes faster straight line shots and allows the full perimeter of the body to be covered using very small movements with either arm. It is the fact that the movements are small that makes it possible to cover the space and avoids the need to chase arms leaving gaps for subsequent shots.

[LFJ]

If you push both of your hands so far to one side (and it has to be both hands) that you can prevent attacks from that side including angled shots and hooks then you will by default have exposed not just the other side but also the centre.

The strategy of a baiting guard.

Holding wu sao as per the original post does nothing to prevent a hook coming outside of the none wu sao arm and so does not preclude attack to that side.

Easily dealt with.

It does however make it nigh on impossible to defend any type of hook coming in from the wu sao side due to teh distance needed to be covered.

Why? What is your response to hooks, catching them?

It is the fact that the movements are small that makes it possible to cover the space and avoids the need to chase arms leaving gaps for subsequent shots.

There is never a need to chase arms. The baiting guard intercepts with straight line attacks cutting the opponent's way.


I wonder if you have tested this guard or you're just imagining what it may be like. It must go hand-in-hand with correct attack lines though. If your fighting strategy differs it's likely to not work, but that's more due to the strategy than the guard.

[Graham H]

LFJ that type of thinking is not in any of the Ip's systems of Kung Fu. Ian has not been exposed to it so won't understand it.

[GlennR]

LFJ that type of thinking is not in any of the Ip's systems of Kung Fu. Ian has not been exposed to it so won't understand it.

What's there to understand.

If you guard from one side, you attack from one side.

The technique ( its not a concept) is a trade off.

[Graham H]

What's there to understand.

If you guard from one side, you attack from one side.

The technique ( its not a concept) is a trade off.

Not entirely true Glenn. How you attack is dictated by the attacker in most cases and this "concept" also allows you to change to the other side in one action whereby if the wu sau and man sau are incorrect it does not.

It's better to describe actions as concepts because there is no set application.

I find it bizarre that Ving Tsun is generally marketed as a system of simple concepts and principles yet most have to attach applications to all the actions in the forms in which case it ceases to remain simple.

[Happy Tiger]

Not entirely true Glenn. How you attack is dictated by the attacker in most cases and this "concept" also allows you to change to the other side in one action whereby if the wu sau and man sau are incorrect it does not.

It's better to describe actions as concepts because there is no set application.

I find it bizarre that Ving Tsun is generally marketed as a system of simple concepts and principles yet most have to attach applications to all the actions in the forms in which case it ceases to remain simple.

yup.That's the way I see it,too. Deception is a cornerstone on combat but if ignorant will backfire disasterously

[JPinAZ]

I find it bizarre that Ving Tsun is generally marketed as a system of simple concepts and principles yet most have to attach applications to all the actions in the forms in which case it ceases to remain simple.

Exactly, yet you get people mucking it up and overcomplicating it all the time!
This whole "setting up off center and baiting someone so you can get into a chasing hands game" is a perfect case of this and shows a total lack of understanding for wing chun's most basic and primary concepts - Wing Chun Centerline.
And this is probably why you don't see it anywhere else in wig chun except one single sub-lineage.

[Happy Tiger]

Exactly, yet you get people mucking it up and overcomplicating it all the time!
This whole "setting up off center and baiting someone so you can get into a chasing hands game" is a perfect case of this and shows a total lack of understanding for wing chun's most basic and primary concepts - Wing Chun Centerline.
And this is probably why you don't see it anywhere else in wig chun except one single sub-lineage.

True. Not all WSL people do this without context

[Happy Tiger]

Gasp!!!! I suddenlly realised!!!This is the 'secret' technique of VT!!!!! THIS is the 'five finger death heart exploding technique' only taught to the 'elite' privilaged master students of VT. The technique held back from all but a few that erzats all established VT beliefs. Woah!!!! If I ever start teaching I'm gonna charge 499.95 HK dollars for it.

[LFJ]

This whole "setting up off center and baiting someone so you can get into a chasing hands game" is a perfect case of this and shows a total lack of understanding for wing chun's most basic and primary concepts - Wing Chun Centerline.

A complete misunderstanding of basic strategy. This guard serves only to facilitate the strategy which is "cutting the way". There is no hand chasing whatsoever. The response is cutting down the center line with a straight line attack. We don't care about the hands, and this guard is making it so that we need care even less.

I guess Graham is right, if you have no conception of "cutting the way" then this can turn into chasing hands, but probably because you chase hands anyway without realizing it.