Wu Sau: Positioning, Reference and Gate Stratagy

[Graham H]

How do you know about PB's Wu sau?? Are you a student?

[LFJ]

I think you're just not getting what "same point in space means". No one is suggesting you keep your wu-sau at the center of your chest when you shift, which would be moving the wu-sau along with the rest of your body as a unit. Holding it in the "same point in space" while your body shifts around it ends up with it being closer to one shoulder, remaining on the central line between yourself and your opponent, and not too close or extended.

Wu-sau as done in SNT used in application of course doesn't draw all the way back to the chest. It stops sooner, but draws in nonetheless which guides the incoming attack on the outside of the arm down and off to the side. There's nothing wrong with such an application. There are of course many other things wu-sau does as well, but as far as I know that's pretty standard, simple SNT understanding in WSLVT.

[Graham H]

I think you're just not getting what "same point in space means". No one is suggesting you keep your wu-sau at the center of your chest when you shift, which would be moving the wu-sau along with the rest of your body as a unit. Holding it in the "same point in space" while your body shifts around it ends up with it being closer to one shoulder, remaining on the central line between yourself and your opponent, and not too close or extended.

Wu-sau as done in SNT used in application of course doesn't draw all the way back to the chest. It stops sooner, but draws in nonetheless which guides the incoming attack on the outside of the arm down and off to the side. There's nothing wrong with such an application. There are of course many other things wu-sau does as well, but as far as I know that's pretty standard, simple SNT understanding in WSLVT.

Ok so we agree or disagree or a agree to disagree?

In my system the action you are referring to that draws the arm off to one side is Lan Sau (as shown in Chum Kiu) not Wu Sau. I'm not even comfortable with describing it like that because that particular action has Jut Sau inside but this is a forum and full of problems.

Wu Sau is for protection and your next hit position. No more. That is simple and enough for me otherwise we can create many things and call them many names.

Wing Tsun is a good example of that

[k gledhill]

2 old clips as one new longer clip...... http://youtu.be/ODmA3MsS9kU

[LFJ]

Ok so we agree or disagree or a agree to disagree?

I don't know. Everyone I've seen in WSLVT does this the same way, at least in form. The wu-sau is always on the central line between yourself and your opponent, whether squared in SNT or shifted in CK or MYJ. It is never anywhere off to the side of that line.

In my system the action you are referring to that draws the arm off to one side is Lan Sau (as shown in Chum Kiu) not Wu Sau. I'm not even comfortable with describing it like that because that particular action has Jut Sau inside but this is a forum and full of problems.

Wu Sau is for protection and your next hit position. No more. That is simple and enough for me otherwise we can create many things and call them many names.

That particular laan-sau starts from being caught with your arm up, where ideally you'd want your elbow down in wu-sau, but if you drop the elbow at that point the attacker can get in. So you maintain that slight angle and shift to the side, drawing the attack off.

The same concept works with wu-sau when your arm is extended and there is contact on the outside. You keep it level and draw it back half way and that guides the attack off to the side.

I don't know any clips on youtube demonstrating this without some digging, but David Peterson clearly explains it in his SNT dvd you can see, and I know other WSLVT instructors teach it as well.

The wu-sau in CK follows the yi-bong or paau-bong as a backup hand, as you say. But the wu-sau in SNT also has a function directly applicable to fighting, only it draws all the way back in the form to practice a long fuk-sau, whereas in application it would stop much further out.

[Graham H]

I don't know. Everyone I've seen in WSLVT does this the same way, at least in form. The wu-sau is always on the central line between yourself and your opponent, whether squared in SNT or shifted in CK or MYJ. It is never anywhere off to the side of that line.

Well in my lineage it is for a very good reason and its something I was not exposed to up until I met PB. I had been involved in the WSL lineage for 5 years previous with "other" instructors.

That particular laan-sau starts from being caught with your arm up, where ideally you'd want your elbow down in wu-sau, but if you drop the elbow at that point the attacker can get in. So you maintain that slight angle and shift to the side, drawing the attack off.

I do not see the forms full of applications. Something else that I did not know about until PB.

The same concept works with wu-sau when your arm is extended and there is contact on the outside. You keep it level and draw it back half way and that guides the attack off to the side.

There is no time in a fight for such things to happen IMO

I don't know any clips on youtube demonstrating this without some digging, but David Peterson clearly explains it in his SNT dvd you can see, and I know other WSLVT instructors teach it as well.

I know what is in Davids DVD's and have met him and attended his seminars. I'm not involved with any other WSLVT instructors now. I was exposed to a different way of thinking and haven't looked back.

The wu-sau in CK follows the yi-bong or paau-bong as a backup hand, as you say. But the wu-sau in SNT also has a function directly applicable to fighting, only it draws all the way back in the form to practice a long fuk-sau, whereas in application it would stop much further out.

Yi Bongs, Paau Bongs, Low Bongs, High Bongs yadda yadda yadda. There is only one Bong Sau in my system.......a rotation of the elbow to open the way for the punch. No more. No less

[LFJ]

Come off it already, Graham. This is about the wu-sau in postures from the forms. It's the same in two sections of CK which I just labeled yi-bong and paau-bong for reference. This was never about the bong-sau so you don't have to tout the conceptual superiority of your system there. Especially since we're talking about the same system.

I do not see the forms full of applications. Something else that I did not know about until PB.

There is no time in a fight for such things to happen IMO

You just finished describing the same function with the laan-sau from CK section 1, which in that case is simply a corrupt wu-sau performing the same function as introduced in SNT at an angle and with a shift. You can't tell it's the same thing apparently because you didn't start paying attention until CK.

[Graham H]

Come off it already, Graham. This is about the wu-sau in postures from the forms. It's the same in two sections of CK which I just labeled yi-bong and paau-bong for reference. This was never about the bong-sau so you don't have to tout the conceptual superiority of your system there. Especially since we're talking about the same system.

Conceptual superiority???

Not superior...just different.

[LFJ]

Different than what? This isn't a bong-sau topic. Who cares? Just felt like pointing out all the things you like about PB's approach?

We're talking about wu-sau here. You previously said it's on the central line relative to your opponent, then you said it's moved slightly. Where is it now, on top of your shoulder?

[GlennR]

Come off it already, Graham. This is about the wu-sau in postures from the forms. It's the same in two sections of CK which I just labeled yi-bong and paau-bong for reference. This was never about the bong-sau so you don't have to tout the conceptual superiority of your system there. Especially since we're talking about the same system.

Youre not talking about the same system, he does PBWSLVT and from what i understand you do another line of WSLVT

Thats like saying all Ip Man students do it the same way..

[LFJ]

The video was from someone apparently in WSLVT. The OP asked if it was standard VT. I think we can take WSL as the point of reference in that. We have video footage of him performing all the forms, and as far as I've seen practitioners of his method tend to do this posture the same with the wu-sau on the central line. But that's in form. In application may be another story, but I've never seen anyone do it differently in application, including PB, so...

[Graham H]

The video was from someone apparently in WSLVT. The OP asked if it was standard VT. I think we can take WSL as the point of reference in that. We have video footage of him performing all the forms, and as far as I've seen practitioners of his method tend to do this posture the same with the wu-sau on the central line. But that's in form. In application may be another story, but I've never seen anyone do it differently in application, including PB, so...

Maybe you should go to PB and ask him personally and he will show you. I wouldn't take what's shown on video as concrete either. I used to make that mistake.

As for Wu Sau watch that video that Kev re-posted. The Wu Sau position is there and its not on center as it is in SLT is it? He also explains the reason why?

That should be good enough for you.

Starts at around 1:00 and he is explaining it rather than just standing there and doing it.

[Graham H]

So you will see that in SLT all the hand positions and actions are not yet ready for fighting. This is why the form is full of small ideas. Not yet completed. When we can add the pivot, step and whole body into the equation (Lat Sau Jik Chun) then things can be trained in their entirety.

As for Wu Sau in SLT it is just one position held in the middle for training something. Mainly the elbow.

In your line it seems that many applications are attached to Wu Sau. This is wrong IMO. If that were the correct way then maybe Chum Kiu should come first

SLT is your ABC. All the components are there but no applications. We need Chum Kiu and Chi Sau to express these basic ideas and actions properly. WSL said that didn't he and yet many people can spend a whole day breaking SLT down into fighting applications. You cannot fight with SLT ideas. Many try which is why Ving Tsun becomes a battle for the center and ends up in arm glue slap festivals. Ving Tsun has a better strategy than that and it seems to fly over the top of peoples heads. Your WSL's of this world had a better idea and I think he referred to it as "a certain intelligence"

[Wayfaring]

There are plenty of arts that employ the strategy of leaving an opening and countering when someone attacks the opening. The advantage of the strategy is that you can know where the attack is coming and get ahead of it on the counter-attack. One example of this in boxing is what is called the "Philly shell" where the lead jab hand is down leaving a jab opening to the head. Then head movement moves just enough to slip the jab, leaving good counters. IMO this is what the clip strategy and what PB is probably striving for in teaching this. Of course this is my interpretation and the PB crowd can chime in at will to correct me.

The problem with this strategy is that it violates some core fundamental principles, including chasing hands and economy of motion. Is this OK? Sure it is, as long as you are aware of the fundamentals and don't make this your new fundamental.

How do you deal with the Philly shell? Fundamentals. Instead of taking the bait and jabbing to the head, where elusive head movement can make you miss and open you up to counters, you start striking center of mass solar plexus - jab there, combos there. Also, strategies that leave openings are very susceptible to the feint. Chasing hands in general is very susceptible to the feint. Feint to the bait opening, then attack where the hands were when they react. This makes the fight go to quickness and timing as opposed to fundamental control of space. I would consider this more of a "trick" maneuver. When would I employ a strategy like this? Probably when I'm dealing with a straight-up hoss with fundamentals that's a bit much to deal with athletically and physically and the direct method isn't working. Employ some trickery. But I will always revert back to the fundamentally sound under stress and recovery. If you revert back to a "trick" maneuver as a habit under stress you are going to get destroyed in transition.

Anyways, my thoughts on the topic.

[LFJ]

As for Wu Sau watch that video that Kev re-posted. The Wu Sau position is there and its not on center as it is in SLT is it? He also explains the reason why?

I get the idea in the video, just not sure where it originated. I don't see it appear in any of the forms and never heard of WSL teaching it. He even argued that it should be on the center relative to the opponent in CK rather than the center of the chest, but never crossing the center like that.

Holding a guard like that, trying to dictate how the opponent can attack and how you respond is impractical. It might work for the first second, but then you'll have to go back to guarding the center properly/ equally.

In your line it seems that many applications are attached to Wu Sau.

Not applications, just functions. Letters usually need combinations to make words and sentences, but individually they still have the sounds which function in those words. Your SNT wu-sau is the same shape and action as in CK section 1 laan-sau, only there it's combined with a different angle and body shifting to make something more dynamic of it. That's all. Same with bong, taan, etc.. The shape and action remains the same, there's just more cooperation with the rest of the body to enhance the function in a particular way.