Wu Sau: Positioning, Reference and Gate Stratagy

[Graham H]

There are plenty of arts that employ the strategy of leaving an opening and countering when someone attacks the opening. The advantage of the strategy is that you can know where the attack is coming and get ahead of it on the counter-attack. One example of this in boxing is what is called the "Philly shell" where the lead jab hand is down leaving a jab opening to the head. Then head movement moves just enough to slip the jab, leaving good counters. IMO this is what the clip strategy and what PB is probably striving for in teaching this. Of course this is my interpretation and the PB crowd can chime in at will to correct me.

The problem with this strategy is that it violates some core fundamental principles, including chasing hands and economy of motion. Is this OK? Sure it is, as long as you are aware of the fundamentals and don't make this your new fundamental.

How do you deal with the Philly shell? Fundamentals. Instead of taking the bait and jabbing to the head, where elusive head movement can make you miss and open you up to counters, you start striking center of mass solar plexus - jab there, combos there. Also, strategies that leave openings are very susceptible to the feint. Chasing hands in general is very susceptible to the feint. Feint to the bait opening, then attack where the hands were when they react. This makes the fight go to quickness and timing as opposed to fundamental control of space. I would consider this more of a "trick" maneuver. When would I employ a strategy like this? Probably when I'm dealing with a straight-up hoss with fundamentals that's a bit much to deal with athletically and physically and the direct method isn't working. Employ some trickery. But I will always revert back to the fundamentally sound under stress and recovery. If you revert back to a "trick" maneuver as a habit under stress you are going to get destroyed in transition.

Anyways, my thoughts on the topic.

Who are you fighting when you are descibing this? A pro boxer? A cage fighter? Maybe a Ninja?

You seem to create some perfect situations and how you would respond.....BS imo

[Graham H]

I get the idea in the video, just not sure where it originated. I don't see it appear in any of the forms and never heard of WSL teaching it. He even argued that it should be on the center relative to the opponent in CK rather than the center of the chest, but never crossing the center like that.

Maybe you didn't hear of WSL teaching it but that doesn't mean he didn't! What does it matter anyway? He's not here to ask. I expect if he was he would be laughing at all the pointless fuss this is creating

Holding a guard like that, trying to dictate how the opponent can attack and how you respond is impractical. It might work for the first second, but then you'll have to go back to guarding the center properly/ equally.

It does me just fine and as I used to think like you and indeed practiced your system I think I'm in a good position to have my own ideas these days.

Not applications, just functions. Letters usually need combinations to make words and sentences, but individually they still have the sounds which function in those words. Your SNT wu-sau is the same shape and action as in CK section 1 laan-sau, only there it's combined with a different angle and body shifting to make something more dynamic of it. That's all. Same with bong, taan, etc.. The shape and action remains the same, there's just more cooperation with the rest of the body to enhance the function in a particular way.

Applications.....Functions......I say potato......you say potarrrrto

For me Bong Sau has nothing in comparison to Tan Sau. Tan Sau is a punch in my Ving Tsun. Bong Sau helps the punch. In fact both actions together make Kwan Sau........the punch (Tan Sau) starts from Wu Sau position and in order for this action to work Wu Sau must be in the position as shown by Silvano other wise you have to step to the outside which I'm guessing you would do right?. I punch and then cut the opponents way. Another gem that I knew nothing about in "other" WSL systems.

Can we talk about something else now? What did you have for dinner? I had fish

[Wayfaring]

Who are you fighting when you are descibing this? A pro boxer? A cage fighter? Maybe a Ninja?

I have sparring partners that fit all of the above. Some more than one category.

You seem to create some perfect situations and how you would respond.....BS imo

And you are talking out your arse IMO.

All I am doing is describing how a pro boxer and coach instructs how to deal with the Philly shell and general strategy about when you want to resort to trickery.

I realize that since all you do is slap fight basically how that would really bend your mind around.

[GlennR]

The video was from someone apparently in WSLVT. The OP asked if it was standard VT. I think we can take WSL as the point of reference in that. We have video footage of him performing all the forms, and as far as I've seen practitioners of his method tend to do this posture the same with the wu-sau on the central line. But that's in form. In application may be another story, but I've never seen anyone do it differently in application, including PB, so...

Yeh but see thats the thing, G isnt learning of WSL... he's learning of PB who learnt of WSL.

Try as hard as you like to keep it "pure", but WSLVT died when he did.

What you have left, for better or worse, is other peoples interpretations

[GlennR]

]

There are plenty of arts that employ the strategy of leaving an opening and countering when someone attacks the opening. The advantage of the strategy is that you can know where the attack is coming and get ahead of it on the counter-attack. One example of this in boxing is what is called the "Philly shell" where the lead jab hand is down leaving a jab opening to the head. Then head movement moves just enough to slip the jab, leaving good counters. IMO this is what the clip strategy and what PB is probably striving for in teaching this. Of course this is my interpretation and the PB crowd can chime in at will to correct me.

Nice take on it. I actually watched the vid KG put up last night and thats a very good comparison youve made.

The problem with this strategy is that it violates some core fundamental principles, including chasing hands and economy of motion. Is this OK? Sure it is, as long as you are aware of the fundamentals and don't make this your new fundamental.

Works ok for mayweather.

How do you deal with the Philly shell? Fundamentals. Instead of taking the bait and jabbing to the head, where elusive head movement can make you miss and open you up to counters, you start striking center of mass solar plexus - jab there, combos there.

In our gym, when confronted with the above we aim at the very top of the chest.. works well.

Also, strategies that leave openings are very susceptible to the feint. Chasing hands in general is very susceptible to the feint. Feint to the bait opening, then attack where the hands were when they react. This makes the fight go to quickness and timing as opposed to fundamental control of space. I would consider this more of a "trick" maneuver. When would I employ a strategy like this? Probably when I'm dealing with a straight-up hoss with fundamentals that's a bit much to deal with athletically and physically and the direct method isn't working. Employ some trickery. But I will always revert back to the fundamentally sound under stress and recovery. If you revert back to a "trick" maneuver as a habit under stress you are going to get destroyed in transition.

Anyways, my thoughts on the topic.

Nice post

[GlennR]

Who are you fighting when you are descibing this? A pro boxer? A cage fighter? Maybe a Ninja?

You seem to create some perfect situations and how you would respond.....BS imo

No G, he's just fighting

Who are you fighting? Old men? Children? Nuns?

[LFJ]

the punch (Tan Sau) starts from Wu Sau position and in order for this action to work Wu Sau must be in the position as shown by Silvano other wise you have to step to the outside which I'm guessing you would do right?. I punch and then cut the opponents way.

Looking at his video again, he explains that if your hands are kept on the center the opponent can only attack on two sides. If I'm on the center why would have to step to the outside? I can just go down the center.

I understand what he's doing with the wu-sau off center and cutting the line back in. Others have this line of attack too. That's called the 3rd line of attack in Hawkins Cheung's method. The 1st line is straight down the center. The 2nd line is cutting in from the outside. The 3rd line is cutting in from the opposite shoulder.

The only thing is, this is a line of attack that may be used to great effect in fighting, but as a luring guard? I think it might work against less experienced VT fighters. Practitioners of other styles won't necessarily be left with the one option you think you're giving them or be tempted to take the bait. I think I'd rather keep a normal center guard.

Funny he was doing all that talking about the elbow, which as a WSLVT practitioner I agree with, but then it cuts to him popping his elbow up on the dummy. I must keep the elbow down there.

Can we talk about something else now? What did you have for dinner? I had fish

Haven't had dinner yet. It's only past 6pm over here. But fish sounds good.

[Graham H]

No G, he's just fighting

Who are you fighting? Old men? Children? Nuns?

You forgot old women, babies, pregnant women, foxes, dogs and lamp posts!

[Graham H]

Looking at his video again, he explains that if your hands are kept on the center the opponent can only attack on two sides. If I'm on the center why would have to step to the outside? I can just go down the center.

Not if you are fighting somebody who has the center protected at all times. The common mistake of trying to drive down the middle. That's ok if their arms are down. If they are up and fighting you back this idea is wrong. Most of my training has this in mind and Vt adopts a certain strategy to deal with it. I'm yet to see that strategy come through in your posts.

I understand what he's doing with the wu-sau off center and cutting the line back in. Others have this line of attack too. That's called the 3rd line of attack in Hawkins Cheung's method. The 1st line is straight down the center. The 2nd line is cutting in from the outside. The 3rd line is cutting in from the opposite shoulder.

Hawkins Cheung? 3 lines of attack? omfg

The only thing is, this is a line of attack that may be used to great effect in fighting, but as a luring guard? I think it might work against less experienced VT fighters. Practitioners of other styles won't necessarily be left with the one option you think you're giving them or be tempted to take the bait. I think I'd rather keep a normal center guard.

You do that mate and I'll keep my center

Funny he was doing all that talking about the elbow, which as a WSLVT practitioner I agree with, but then it cuts to him popping his elbow up on the dummy. I must keep the elbow down there.

Which just goes to show that maybe your Dummy knowledge is just as different as this is done for a very specific reason.

Haven't had dinner yet. It's only past 6pm over here. But fish sounds good.

Chinese food today. Wu Sau Chow Mein and Bong Sau Soup

[LFJ]

Not if you are fighting somebody who has the center protected at all times. The common mistake of trying to drive down the middle. That's ok if their arms are down. If they are up and fighting you back this idea is wrong. Most of my training has this in mind and Vt adopts a certain strategy to deal with it. I'm yet to see that strategy come through in your posts.

You were talking about reacting to an attack from this luring guard... How come I get a different scenario?

If I'm on the center, according to your friend's video, the attacker has to come from the sides. So I wouldn't need to step to the outside.

Hawkins Cheung? 3 lines of attack? omfg

So I've heard. Not a fan?

Which just goes to show that maybe your Dummy knowledge is just as different as this is done for a very specific reason.

What's the very specific reason for popping your elbow up when doing a hyun or gaang-sau? It should pull from the elbow as he explained in the video.

Chinese food today. Wu Sau Chow Mein and Bong Sau Soup

It's just called food over here.

[Graham H]

You were talking about reacting to an attack from this luring guard... How come I get a different scenario?

If I'm on the center, according to your friend's video, the attacker has to come from the sides. So I wouldn't need to step to the outside.

Dude if we were in the same room this conversation would have been over days ago. No more eh? Trying to explain stuff on a forum is pants.

So I've heard. Not a fan?

No but never met the guy so wouldn't like to make too much judgements.

What's the very specific reason for popping your elbow up when doing a hyun or gaang-sau? It should pull from the elbow as he explained in the video.

I can feel another long thread coming on

Many moves in the dummy are not performed correctly or completed as the dummy is fixed and rigid unlike a human being.

Most people view the dummy as a person. The dummy is not a man and doesn't represent human limbs. The dummy is a conditioning tool. It conditions actions specific to Ving Tsun and the limbs are reference for the correct elbow position and for feedback. When I say conditioning I don't mean conditioning the limbs. I mean conditioning focus, precision, syncronicity, timing, balance and to develop the necessary shock force needed for striking and certain other actions. The dummy has no moving joints as a human does so one has to think correctly about what she/he is trying to achieve. The movement you are referring to is not heun/gaan. It is huen/jum for developing punching using the pivot and waist together and because there is feedback, balance and structure.

Although there are some fundamental ideas about recovery in the form on the whole it is for development.

No applications. Can you see a pattern emerging here?

It's just called food over here.

You live in China? Where?

[LFJ]

No but never met the guy so wouldn't like to make too much judgements.

Oh, the question marks and "omfg" seemed like a judgement...

Many moves in the dummy are not performed correctly or completed as the dummy is fixed and rigid unlike a human being....

...It conditions actions specific to Ving Tsun and the limbs are reference for the correct elbow position and for feedback...

...The movement you are referring to is not heun/gaan. It is huen/jum for developing punching using the pivot and waist together and because there is feedback, balance and structure.

Yup, got all that. Pivot, waist power, elbow position, punch. But his left elbow popped up.

What I was saying is, the left hand does gaang-sau drawing from the elbow with a little circle of the wrist to guide the action while the right hand does jam-sau, but because of the dummy having wooden arms, the gaang-sau action must be modified and becomes a short hyun-sau action.

But either way, hyun or gaang, it should be drawing from the elbow, which can't be done if the elbow pops up to the side, higher than the dummy arm, like he did. I do this part drawing from the elbow, elbow down, with a circle to guide it while using the waist to pivot and snap back straight with the jam-sau/punch.

You say there's a "very specific" reason for popping the elbow up on either hyun-sau or gaang-sau? You didn't actually address that in your response.

You live in China? Where?

Shanghai.

[Graham H]

Oh, the question marks and "omfg" seemed like a judgement...

Sorry Your Honor

Yup, got all that. Pivot, waist power, elbow position, punch. But his left elbow popped up.

Ask him about it. Maybe he was waving at you.

What I was saying is, the left hand does gaang-sau drawing from the elbow with a little circle of the wrist to guide the action while the right hand does jam-sau, but because of the dummy having wooden arms, the gaang-sau action must be modified and becomes a short hyun-sau action.

Guide what action?

But either way, hyun or gaang, it should be drawing from the elbow, which can't be done if the elbow pops up to the side, higher than the dummy arm, like he did. I do this part drawing from the elbow, elbow down, with a circle to guide it while using the waist to pivot and snap back straight with the jam-sau/punch.

Drawing the elbow?

You say there's a "very specific" reason for popping the elbow up on either hyun-sau or gaang-sau? You didn't actually address that in your response.

Yes ask him about it. I'm not in the video

Shanghai

well if I'm ever local I will look you up

[LFJ]

Well, I ask you because you defended it saying my understanding is just different because there is a "very specific" reason for it.

Guide what action?

Drawing the elbow?

Guide the gaang-sau action drawing the opponent's arm, turning their body using waist power and drawing from the elbow (as he explained in the video talking about the SNT gaang-sau), along with the jam-sau. It has a little hyun in the wrist to direct the energy in a "drawing" action, rather than being a stiff, chopping action. The elbow draws downward and away to spin them in their stance. It shouldn't pop up over the height of the dummy's arm. That's even above your own wrist.

I just found it odd, the long speech about the elbow leading everything, then it breaks to a clip of his elbow popping way up like that.

well if I'm ever local I will look you up

Cool. Are you in China often?

[Graham H]

Well, I ask you because you defended it saying my understanding is just different because there is a "very specific" reason for it.

Because the dummy arms are fixed. I already explained. Does it really matter?

Guide the gaang-sau action drawing the opponent's arm, turning their body using waist power and drawing from the elbow (as he explained in the video talking about the SNT gaang-sau), along with the jam-sau. It has a little hyun in the wrist to direct the energy in a "drawing" action, rather than being a stiff, chopping action. The elbow draws downward and away to spin them in their stance. It shouldn't pop up over the height of the dummy's arm. That's even above your own wrist.

Drawing the opponents arm is not my thinking so cannot discuss. Gan Sau in SLT is not an application to me. I already explained that as well. What is your idea behind why we do Gan Sau and please don't say to defend a kick or to try and manipulate your opponent about the place?

I just found it odd, the long speech about the elbow leading everything, then it breaks to a clip of his elbow popping way up like that.

Maybe you can post a clip of how it should be done.

Cool. Are you in China often?

No but there is a small chance I may be in April