Wu Sau: Positioning, Reference and Gate Stratagy

[LFJ]

Because the dummy arms are fixed. I already explained. Does it really matter?

Didn't realize that was your explanation for raising the elbow, because it's possible to do the hyun-sau (or short gaang-sau) on the dummy with the elbow not popping up higher than the dummy arm/ your own wrist.

Does it really matter? If you say it's a reference for correct elbow position, yes it does matter. Because the elbow should cooperate with the waist to drive the motion, but there's a disconnect when the elbow leaves the hip in that action. It's also leaving an opening if the elbow does a chicken wing like that, and it's just plain unsightly.

Drawing the opponents arm is not my thinking so cannot discuss. Gan Sau in SLT is not an application to me. I already explained that as well. What is your idea behind why we do Gan Sau and please don't say to defend a kick or to try and manipulate your opponent about the place?

Nor is it to me either. The particular action from the MYJ form as WSL taught it is a recovery from a wrong gaang-sau done on the inside of the opponent's arm. Hyun the wrist, draw from the elbow and use waist power to turn into jam-sau/punch.

Here's WSL doing the MYJ form. The hyun action is repeated numerous times, each with the elbow not raising above the dummy arm in a chicken wing. The first one is right at 13 seconds in the air dummy. The elbow is clearly below the wrist. The only time the elbow is above the wrist is in bong-sau, as it should. For a quick and clear view of it on the dummy arms just skip to 2:54ish. The elbow is below the wrist. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfzeWu1ftTE

[LFJ]

I always cringe when I see this chicken wing...

Here are some start and finish shots of the action directly following the "wrong gaang-sau". They are opposite sides, but that's the clearest shot.

Starting to circle the wrist and draw with the elbow. The elbow is still below the wrist and dummy arm at the end. Elbow-hip connection. Shoulders nice and even, squared up:



Starting to circle the wrist, but popping the elbow up into a chicken wing even shrugging the shoulder a bit, breaking hip connection, losing elbow power, leaving an opening, and ending with the elbow still up as high as the shoulder over the wrist and dummy arm. Shoulders not square and uneven:

[Paddington]

LFG, ever come across the technique called kau sau? I am not saying that is what is presented in those photos but, from my knowledge, it does appear to be a kau sau. When closing the wooden dummy sections kau sau is often used; an arm has a jum sau contact (in the tan sau like shape) with one side of the dummy arm and then kau saus around to the other side of the dummy arm.

Although on the dummy both the jum and kau sau occur on the same dummy arm, one reality (what you need to imagine) is that the opponent has thrown another strike with his other arm; the first arm being blocked/deflected/controlled by your jum sau. So, here you switch to the other opposite outside gate from the jum sau via the kau sau. A turn or step with the technique goes without saying.

Anyway, that is just one application from the lineage I study under. Yes, for a kau sau the elbow does come up. You are right, I would not hunch either and would try not to engage my traps when raising my elbow.

EDIT: Oh, funnily enough like someones suggestion for a wu sau that encourages an attack via a certain gate, the jum sau I describe can be, in application, very shallow in order to encourage the opponent to attack along a particular line to set up kau sau.

[k gledhill]

LFG, ever come across the technique called kau sau? I am not saying that is what is presented in those photos but, from my knowledge, it does appear to be a kau sau. When closing the wooden dummy sections kau sau is often used; an arm has a jum sau contact (in the tan sau like shape) with one side of the dummy arm and then kau saus around to the other side of the dummy arm.

Although on the dummy both the jum and kau sau occur on the same dummy arm, one reality (what you need to imagine) is that the opponent has thrown another strike with his other arm; the first arm being blocked/deflected/controlled by your jum sau. So, here you switch to the other opposite outside gate from the jum sau via the kau sau. A turn or step with the technique goes without saying.

Anyway, that is just one application from the lineage I study under. Yes, for a kau sau the elbow does come up. You are right, I would not hunch either and would try not to engage my traps when raising my elbow.

EDIT: Oh, funnily enough like someones suggestion for a wu sau that encourages an attack via a certain gate, the jum sau I describe can be, in application, very shallow in order to encourage the opponent to attack along a particular line to set up kau sau.

kau sao.....

[Paddington]

You could always state directly your derision K_gledhill, rather than merely posturing disapproval via your use of a well used internet meme.

[Graham H]

Didn't realize that was your explanation for raising the elbow, because it's possible to do the hyun-sau (or short gaang-sau) on the dummy with the elbow not popping up higher than the dummy arm/ your own wrist.
Does it really matter? If you say it's a reference for correct elbow position, yes it does matter. Because the elbow should cooperate with the waist to drive the motion, but there's a disconnect when the elbow leaves the hip in that action. It's also leaving an opening if the elbow does a chicken wing like that, and it's just plain unsightly.

Leaving an opening for what? Disconnect when the elbow leaves the hip? You sound like my old Sifu

If you could go to his school and take advantage of such "mistakes" then we would be getting somewhere. I'm not sure you could. He comes from a good school and his Teacher is also very good.

Nor is it to me either. The particular action from the MYJ form as WSL taught it is a recovery from a wrong gaang-sau done on the inside of the opponent's arm. Hyun the wrist, draw from the elbow and use waist power to turn into jam-sau/punch.

Have you ever done a wrong gan sau before in a proper fight?

Here's WSL doing the MYJ form. The hyun action is repeated numerous times, each with the elbow not raising above the dummy arm in a chicken wing. The first one is right at 13 seconds in the air dummy. The elbow is clearly below the wrist. The only time the elbow is above the wrist is in bong-sau, as it should. For a quick and clear view of it on the dummy arms just skip to 2:54ish. The elbow is below the wrist.

Ah ok...WSL doing the form in his later years for the camera. That explains everything doesn't it? Lets take that as proof shal we? LOL

A bet that took you a while to produce your evidence Officer!

[Graham H]

You could always state directly your derision K_gledhill, rather than merely posturing disapproval via your use of a well used internet meme.

I will.....Kau Sau is the biggest comedy action in Wing Chun. I was taught that once in my Ip Chun years.

Thank you for bringing back such wasted but pleasant memories Paddington.

[k gledhill]

You could always state directly your derision K_gledhill, rather than merely posturing disapproval via your use of a well used internet meme.

because you want to argue about it...

[Paddington]

I will.....Kau Sau is the biggest comedy action in Wing Chun. I was taught that once in my Ip Chun years.

Thank you for bringing back such wasted but pleasant memories Paddington.

because you want to argue about it...

Nope, just interested to hear why you are both not keen on kau sau. I am not one of those people that goes "no, it is like this" or "that's wrong that is how to do it" and then repeats disapproval. I am more than open to discuss advantages and disadvantages and that is not really to argue is it? Anyway, if you don't want to respond with words but rather well used Internet memes, then that is fine by me.

EDIT: I've found kau sau useful myself but then again I do move a lot on my feet. I tend to practice the movement in my knife forms too when switching to opposite sides.

[Ali. R]

LFG, ever come across the technique called kau sau? I am not saying that is what is presented in those photos but, from my knowledge, it does appear to be a kau sau..

LMAO

Hellooooo, everybody!

It's a garm sao, transitioning into hieung sao.

[Paddington]

LMAO

Hellooooo, everybody!

It's a garm sao, transitioning into hieung sao.

The latter photographs (not WSL) look like a kau sau from a closing of a section. At least in my lineage kau sau is an oft repeated movement in the dummy form. Ali, what do you think to kau sau? Ever used it much in a chi sau context?

[Ali. R]

Ali, what do you think to kau sau? Ever used it much in a chi sau context?

Sure I have, the very first movement that you see me do on this clip is a ‘Kau Sao’, with my left hand. Stop it as it plays and you will see it, because it’s with a very strong flow to pick up on the first time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5IjR...AD0BAD4D62A11A

Take care,

[Paddington]

Sure I have, the very first movement that you see me do on this clip is a ‘Kau Sao’, with my left hand. Stop it as it plays and you will see it, because it’s with a very strong flow to pick up on the first time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5IjR...AD0BAD4D62A11A

Take care,

Ah, I guess our reference points for a kau sau are a bit different. I didn't see what I would recognize as a kau sau in that vid at the point you suggested. I take it with kau sau you keep your elbow down?

[Ali. R]

Ah, I guess our reference points for a kau sau are a bit different. I didn't see what I would recognize as a kau sau in that vid at the point you suggested. I take it with kau sau you keep your elbow down?

The ‘Kau Sao’ is used to grab ones trapezium or wrist, it actually receives the incoming intent or one could attack with it. In the 'Leung Sheung' system that I’m certified to teach in, we try not to bring our hands above or clavicle (elbows/shoulders are always dipped), but with only certain techniques and ‘Kau Sao isn’t one of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5IjR...AD0BAD4D62A11A

Take care,

[Paddington]

Link to that second vid does not work Ali. Yet another differences between the lineages. That is not to say that the way we do it is the better way, mind.

EDIT: link working now