Wu Sau: Positioning, Reference and Gate Stratagy

[Ali. R]

Link to that second vid does not work Ali. Yet another differences between the lineages. That is not to say that the way we do it is the better way, mind.

EDIT: link working now

When receiving the strike the block comes at shoulder level, because we block at the original line its taking. When we attack with it, there’s no need to bring the block up to our face/shoulder level but only to a line of less velocity and power.

Take care,

[Paddington]

When receiving the strike the block comes at shoulder level, because we block at the original line its taking. When we attack with it, there’s no need to bring the block up to our face/shoulder level but only to a line of less velocity and power.

Take care,

Don't get me wrong, the way I use kau sau does not preclude performing it lower down. Yes, it becomes quite much like a passive gang sau then. Like you I use this structure to redirect opponents energy; taking them the way their energy wants to go.

I guess I highlighted the higher position earlier because right now, I am training with the knives and practicing the kau dao movement a lot.

EDIT: For me, the relationship between lower gang sau and kau sau is similar to the relationship between bong sau and dai bong sau.

[Ali. R]

EDIT: For me, the relationship between lower gang sau and kau sau is similar to the relationship between bong sau and dai bong sau.

First of all, the ‘Kau Sao’ is not within the same family of blocks as the ‘Gong Sao’, even if it’s in a low position. Simply because the ‘Kau Sao’; is ONLY executed with the palm and fingers of the hand and NOT with the ulna of the arm, which is totally two different families of blocks.

The ‘Kau Sao’ would be in the ‘Lop’ family of blocks and not the bong sau.

[Paddington]

First of all, the ‘Kau Sao’ is not within the same family of blocks as the ‘Gong Sao’, even if it’s in a low position. Simply because the ‘Kau Sao’; is ONLY executed with the palm and fingers of the hand and NOT with the ulna of the arm, which is totally two different families of blocks.

The ‘Kau Sao’ would be in the ‘Lop’ family of blocks and not the bong sau.

I think you misunderstand my terms of reference. Please alow me to briefly clarify.

I am not saying kau sau is related to bong sau in terms of contact points. In my post I assumed the part my body making contact as my point of reference (like you have done), by saying I saw a relationship between lower passive gang (not bong) sau and kau sau. Gang sau means, for me, splitting hand and kau sau, scooping hand.

The contact for both these techniques in my lineage, like yours it seems, has the palm towards the opponents arm. Commonly the crook where the palm meets the forearm (wrist joint) as-well as the palm blade and even the chunky thumb muscle, would be where I would want the opponent to make contact with me, depending on the situation with this technique.

I agree that bong sau and dai bong sau make contact at different points. I tried to indicate that dai bong sau is a lower version of bong sau, to be a bit crude. In trying to explain to you how my lineage views kau sau I said 'it is like a higher, passive lower gang sau'.

Of course the height varies and it is a thin line between when the kau sau becomes a lower passive gang sau shape. The same could be said for dai bong sau and bong sau. That was the only point of possible similarity I was trying to make between what you term 'family of blocks'.

Anyway, just to bring this back to the topic of this thread, as I was saying, yes I use wu sau in different positions to encourage certain lines of attack, so I can intercept and counter them. I tend to find my self using a scooping tan sau and sometimes a lap sau as my counters here.

I only mention kau sau because one way I use it requires it to be set up. Here the preceding shape would be a jum sau (could use a tan sau too) rather than a wu sau. However, like a seemingly mispositioned wu sau, the jum sau is cunningly positioned to encourage a certain line of attack to be countered.

EDIT: To give you context into why I do some of my wing chun the way I do. I am slender at 177.8 cm with a mass of just over 70kg (toned but slender). I've had many of my more larger opponents steam on through the center, so I find need for evasion, stepping around opponents and deploying cunning and guile, in my wing chun. The above techniques are a part of that repertoire.

[k gledhill]

I think you misunderstand my terms of reference. Please alow me to briefly clarify.

I am not saying kau sau is related to bong sau in terms of contact points. In my post I assumed the part my body making contact as my point of reference (like you have done), by saying I saw a relationship between lower passive gang (not bong) sau and kau sau. Gang sau means, for me, splitting hand and kau sau, scooping hand.

The contact for both these techniques in my lineage, like yours it seems, has the palm towards the opponents arm. Commonly the crook where the palm meets the forearm (wrist joint) as-well as the palm blade and even the chunky thumb muscle, would be where I would want the opponent to make contact with me, depending on the situation with this technique.

I agree that bong sau and dai bong sau make contact at different points. I tried to indicate that dai bong sau is a lower version of bong sau, to be a bit crude. In trying to explain to you how my lineage views kau sau I said 'it is like a higher, passive lower gang sau'.

Of course the height varies and it is a thin line between when the kau sau becomes a lower passive gang sau shape. The same could be said for dai bong sau and bong sau. That was the only point of possible similarity I was trying to make between what you term 'family of blocks'.

Anyway, just to bring this back to the topic of this thread, as I was saying, yes I use wu sau in different positions to encourage certain lines of attack, so I can intercept and counter them. I tend to find my self using a scooping tan sau and sometimes a lap sau as my counters here.

I only mention kau sau because one way I use it requires it to be set up. Here the preceding shape would be a jum sau rather than a wu sau. However, like a seemingly mispositioned wu sau, the jum sau is cunningly positioned to encourage a certain line of attack to be countered.

" Chunky thumb muscle " deserves

[Paddington]

" Chunky thumb muscle " deserves

I could look up the more scientific terms if you want but you know the particular little crook I mean.

Anyway, kind of hard for me to see what issues you have with what I have said or what issues you have with me, when you can't even be bothered to engage in monosyllabic grunts let alone whole sentences and paragraphs. As I put it in an edit to my magnum opus of a post, there is a reason why I do wing chun like I do, body type and all that.

[Ali. R]

I could look up the more scientific terms if you want but you know the particular little crook I mean.

It would be pretty hard for me to connect the three dealing with the bong and gong sao; with the fact that the ‘Kau Sao’ is all hand and the app I’d use is just the line I chose to take within the points of limits dealing with the ‘Kau Sao’ structure, there is no ulna and radius at play anywhere within that app.

"chunky thumb muscle" is actually a bone called the trapezium: a bone in the wrist that articulates with the metacarpal bone of the thumb.

I’ve mention that (trapezium) within the third post I’d made on this thread.

[Paddington]

It seems that we have a difference in our reference points as to what i mean by a kau sau and a lower passive gang sau shape. Such are the limitations of talking on the forums. In person I would just show you.

[Happy Tiger]

It seems that we have a difference in our reference points as to what i mean by a kau sau and a lower passive gang sau shape. Such are the limitations of talking on the forums. In person I would just show you.

my Cau Sau

[k gledhill]

I could look up the more scientific terms if you want but you know the particular little crook I mean.

Anyway, kind of hard for me to see what issues you have with what I have said or what issues you have with me, when you can't even be bothered to engage in monosyllabic grunts let alone whole sentences and paragraphs. As I put it in an edit to my magnum opus of a post, there is a reason why I do wing chun like I do, body type and all that.

ugh, me no like'um you're idea's

[k gledhill]

my Cau Sau

You where doing so well until the 'photo'...proving it.

[k gledhill]

It would be pretty hard for me to connect the three dealing with the bong and gong sao; with the fact that the ‘Kau Sao’ is all hand and the app I’d use is just the line I chose to take within the points of limits dealing with the ‘Kau Sao’ structure, there is no ulna and radius at play anywhere within that app.

"chunky thumb muscle" is actually a bone called the trapezium: a bone in the wrist that articulates with the metacarpal bone of the thumb.

I’ve mention that (trapezium) within the third post I’d made on this thread.

Ali, there is no such thing as kau sao.

[Paddington]

my Cau Sau

Yes, I have done kau sau like that too. I am assuming you are doing the dar hung jong? (dummy form without the dummy?)

Ali, there is no such thing as kau sao.

Well, as you know I train through the Ip Chun lineage and it is there. You cannot deny that. As I said, your lineage might be different though. Just trying to share how I see that shape and how I use it. You have yet to actually state what you think is wrong with the shape i describe and some uses.

[LFJ]

@Kevin, lol, you're too much!

@Paddington Bear, we don't do kau-sau in WSLVT, so that's definitely not what it is.

Leaving an opening for what? Disconnect when the elbow leaves the hip? You sound like my old Sifu

The same opening made by the wrong gaang-sau, which is to be covered by drawing the elbow and turning the opponent away. Pulling a chicken wing leaves that same opening and doesn't have the drawing power of the elbow-down position.

If you could go to his school and take advantage of such "mistakes" then we would be getting somewhere. I'm not sure you could. He comes from a good school and his Teacher is also very good.

He sounds invincible. So he's the kind of guy who's awkward mistakes can never hurt him, huh? Sounds impressive enough. I'm not gonna tell him he can't do his chicken wing chun then. We can just discuss the pros and cons of us less gifted folk doing it.

Have you ever done a wrong gan sau before in a proper fight?

I've used this action from a gaang-sau setup opening the opponent's guard. The waist power turns the opponent's core through the elbow. You can feel it in your hip, so long as your elbow is down. You lose that with the chicken wing and would be relying on the triceps/shoulder to just move their hand.

Ah ok...WSL doing the form in his later years for the camera. That explains everything doesn't it? Lets take that as proof shal we? LOL

Well, not just. He also taught it. That's just to show you.

A bet that took you a while to produce your evidence Officer!

Nope. It's a snap with a mac.

[Paddington]

@Kevin, lol, you're too much!

@Paddington Bear, we don't do kau-sau in WSLVT, so that's definitely not what it is.

If by 'we' you mean this sub-forum then you are mistaken as not everyone here practices your lineage, WSLVT. I am pretty sure this forum did not have the WSLVT name on the door when I walked in.

TBH, quite a few of you block discussions in an act of what I can only describe as territorial p***ing, much like dogs do. Reading post histories I have yet to decide if play ground bullies is the best way to describe some of you.

Either way, if you know what I am talking about, and one of you did as you had experience down the ip chun lineage, you can still discuss what you think are the flaws with the shape and the usages I discuss. It is, after all, a discussion board. Why is such a shape and usage not used in your lineage?

EDIT: If that picture, Happy Tiger, was just to trick me then fair enough. Still, I see a kau sau there in part shape, hard to see energy direction in a static image. If this is the case you are just reinforcing my view about the adolescent nature of some of you.