Wing Chun use of Fook Sao/u

[GlennR]

I respect what LFJ says more then your moribund posts Glenn but I don't have to agree with him if my thinking is a tad different do I?

Ofcourse you regard him more than me, he tows your line as he is one of your lot.

But nice to see you have a mind of your own

[Graham H]

Ofcourse you regard him more than me, he tows your line as he is one of your lot.

But nice to see you have a mind of your own

One of your lot???? lmao

This has turned into a school yard stand off

Warm cheese and cucumber sandwiches out of my lunch box are ready to be hoisted over your end with Anerlich and the rest of your gang in my sights!

[LFJ]

If your way works for you then fine but I'm not trying out things that I ceased to use 5 years ago for very good reasons.

Is that when you started PBVT and stopped facing non VT, so you don't have to deal with round punches where you aren't in range to just kick? I mean, you just say you prefer your way, but don't offer an actual alternative or describe what that is but "lift hands, hope for best".

Maybe talk past experience. Ever had someone throw a round punch at you in range in the last 5 years? When you had to deal with it or get clocked, what happened?

[wingchunIan]

I've worked out at least for myself why the taan-sau or CK fuk-sau are both likely to fail against round punches, and I believe it is the elbow. These two shapes keep the elbow in and down. Not only do they rely on muscular strength to shut down such a punch, their structure is also collapsible from the front and side against a powerful force because of the elbow being in.

Do you really do tan sao with your elbow in?

FWIW tan da against a round punch works well if you keep your tan supported from the hips. Against a genuine hook - firstly why are you that close? secondly the angle of the strike precludes any successful intervention with the hands. You can evade the strike and pass it as you would the elbow in elbow drill. One of the advantages of rear weighting in the stance and maintaining elbow distance is that you aren't in range for genuine hooks. If you get it wrong and end up too close you need to look to biu tze for your answer.

[LFJ]

In as compared to the wu-sau shape, and we're not just talking about a boxer's tight hook, but any sort of round punch.

[Paddington]

I've worked out at least for myself why the taan-sau or CK fuk-sau are both likely to fail against round punches, and I believe it is the elbow. These two shapes keep the elbow in and down. Not only do they rely on muscular strength to shut down such a punch, their structure is also collapsible from the front and side against a powerful force because of the elbow being in.
.

I agree LFG, the tan sau can collapse under the force of powerful 'round' punches. As you suggest, in the tan sau shape the bicep is activated slightly and this, IMO, contributes to the possibility of the shape collapsing when under pressure.

I find, and so do others I train with, a biu sau perhaps better than a tan. Mind you, it may be a biu that you are not used to; make a tan then rotate the forearm unil the palm is facing down. The elbow can move out a little too if needed. You can actually feel the bicep switch off as you rotate into the biu postion.

I find this biu like structure strong and very much less likely to collapse, particularly if used with a turn. That said, I do agree with others who suggest that tight hooks are had to defend like this but the haymakers, perhaps not

[Vajramusti]

I agree LFG, the tan sau can collapse under the force of powerful 'round' punches. As you suggest, in the tan sau shape the bicep is activated slightly and this, IMO, contributes to the possibility of the shape collapsing when under pressure.

I find, and so do others I train with, a biu sau perhaps better than a tan. Mind you, it may be a biu that you are not used to; make a tan then rotate the forearm unil the palm is facing down. The elbow can move out a little too if needed. You can actually feel the bicep switch off as you rotate into the biu postion.

I find this biu like structure strong and very much less likely to collapse, particularly if used with a turn. That said, I do agree with others who suggest that tight hooks are had to defend like this but the haymakers, perhaps not

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Can't comment on your specific usage without at least seeing a good picture of it.
But IMO anyway whether something collapses or not can depend on the details of the structure at that moment.

[wingchunIan]

I agree LFG, the tan sau can collapse under the force of powerful 'round' punches. As you suggest, in the tan sau shape the bicep is activated slightly and this, IMO, contributes to the possibility of the shape collapsing when under pressure.

I find, and so do others I train with, a biu sau perhaps better than a tan. Mind you, it may be a biu that you are not used to; make a tan then rotate the forearm unil the palm is facing down. The elbow can move out a little too if needed. You can actually feel the bicep switch off as you rotate into the biu postion.

I find this biu like structure strong and very much less likely to collapse, particularly if used with a turn. That said, I do agree with others who suggest that tight hooks are had to defend like this but the haymakers, perhaps not

We ought to exchange notes on this if we ever meet. I also use biu interchangeably with tan for this purpose but mainly due to it taking less movement from where my hands tend to start. I've had guys weighing well over 20stone throw round punches at my tan sao and its never collapsed yet. For me though this is the beauty of Wing Chun, there is a tool box and a set of principles which when combined give a variety of options, its then down to the practitioner to find out what works best for them.

[LFJ]

I find, and so do others I train with, a biu sau perhaps better than a tan. Mind you, it may be a biu that you are not used to; make a tan then rotate the forearm unil the palm is facing down. The elbow can move out a little too if needed. You can actually feel the bicep switch off as you rotate into the biu postion.

That's a similar reason for doing the CK fuk-sau which is the action at the beginning following the three shifts. The palm is down and the energy is going forward and out.

But what I find is that in either alternative it's not so much having the triceps vs bicep activated as it is about having the elbow in a position that can't stop a force that way, especially if it comes sideways. After all, taan implies spreading the force which should use bone rather than muscle to accomplish moving an incoming attack off line. Using it to crash into a round punch sounds like a misapplication to me anyway.

I do agree with others who suggest that tight hooks are had to defend like this but the haymakers, perhaps not

What Phil was talking about in the original video wasn't a boxer's tight hook anyway. It was more like round attacks a CLF practitioner would throw. This sort of wu-da response can work the same way against backhand punches from such styles as well.

[Paddington]

We ought to exchange notes on this if we ever meet. I also use biu interchangeably with tan for this purpose but mainly due to it taking less movement from where my hands tend to start. I've had guys weighing well over 20stone throw round punches at my tan sao and its never collapsed yet. For me though this is the beauty of Wing Chun, there is a tool box and a set of principles which when combined give a variety of options, its then down to the practitioner to find out what works best for them.

Hi Ian. I can plug in my web cam (yes I have that capability now!) and show you how I do the tan and biu in this context. Those shapes might be a touch different to how you may do them.

If you were at the Birmingham Chi Sau gathering a couple of years ago, I think John Brogden talked about such a theme, if that helps jog your memory (there was also a bit about striking an opponents core to break their momentum of attack at the same time, in this scenario).

[Paddington]

That's a similar reason for doing the CK fuk-sau which is the action at the beginning following the three shifts. The palm is down and the energy is going forward and out.

Yes, I know totally what you mean. That said, I believe Ian and I would call that fut sau and we would make contact with the wrist. Ian can confirm the case or not, here. The biu I am describing, although similar in a way, is a bit different. I say that primarily becasue, in our case, the contact point is different and the trajectory of the biu as it travels to intercept the round punch, is different from the fut sau.

But what I find is that in either alternative it's not so much having the triceps vs bicep activated as it is about having the elbow in a position that can't stop a force that way, especially if it comes sideways. After all, taan implies spreading the force which should use bone rather than muscle to accomplish moving an incoming attack off line. Using it to crash into a round punch sounds like a misapplication to me anyway.

I guess for me this is why I suggest always turning the stance when performing such shapes, or you could use a step instead. Although there is a time issue, as we are not dealing with fast, tight, boxer hooks (in this context), I think there is a good chance of spotting the telegraph so that one can turn in time.

[Bacon]

The tan sao is not meant to block all of the force against a round punch. You have to step off line. A strong swing will collapse a biu just the same as a tan if you don't.

[Graham H]

Is that when you started PBVT and stopped facing non VT, so you don't have to deal with round punches where you aren't in range to just kick? I mean, you just say you prefer your way, but don't offer an actual alternative or describe what that is but "lift hands, hope for best".

Maybe talk past experience. Ever had someone throw a round punch at you in range in the last 5 years? When you had to deal with it or get clocked, what happened?

If I was stood in front of you I would have no trouble explaining. Let's leave it at that now eh?

[LFJ]

If I was stood in front of you I would have no trouble explaining. Let's leave it at that now eh?

Do you know of any PBVT brethren in Shanghai?

[Graham H]

Do you know of any PBVT brethren in Shanghai?

There is nobody in China.