Wing Chun use of Fook Sao/u

[k gledhill]

I got away with it when I fought CLF guys. ;-) When I'm in NY I can demonstrate it on you and you really try to hit me. I should be back in April. I'll let you know when in advance when I'll be there.

Cool, I will be in Colorado doing a seminar late in April, but look forward to hooking up again.

[LFJ]

I have to ask you, are you seriously going to jerk someone into you that is already coming at you full steam?

That's what I asked Phil. Of course I would never do this technique. Even if they weren't charging forward, I wouldn't cross myself and jat on the wrong side. It's just asking for the second punch.

I understand your premise for this, that you seek to do a timing disruption with the technique and then do a quick draw, hitting them before they hit you. Have you successfully used this technique in an engagement and does it work every time you do it on a stranger?

I'm not sure if you read my response or who's, but I would never do this technique. It's a big mistake in my view.

Now insofar as "four techniques", tell that to any Pa Kua or Hsing I practitioner who utilizes an-chi-lo-fan. Ask them if they are doing four techniques. They will tell you it is one technique. In similar vein, Phil does one technique. It can be broken down into different parts for teaching purposes but when it comes to application, it is one technique.

Call it what you want, it's not done in one beat. It's several actions in response to a single punch, neither simple, direct, nor efficient.

And of course he would want to get to the outside with a CLF practitioner because the opponent has just laterally crossed his center line setting him up for a checkmate.

The round punch never laterally crossed his center line. It was coming from the outside and Phil crossed himself to chase and catch the hand on the opposite/wrong side to move it and get to the opponent's blind side. It's trying too hard to get outside, doing something that puts him in a bad position at least, and at worst would be disastrous.

[k gledhill]

That's what I asked Phil. Of course I would never do this technique. Even if they weren't charging forward, I wouldn't cross myself and jat on the wrong side. It's just asking for the second punch.



I'm not sure if you read my response or who's, but I would never do this technique. It's a big mistake in my view.



Call it what you want, it's not done in one beat. It's several actions in response to a single punch, neither simple, direct, nor efficient.



The round punch never laterally crossed his center line. It was coming from the outside and Phil crossed himself to chase and catch the hand on the opposite/wrong side to move it and get to the opponent's blind side. It's trying too hard to get outside, doing something that puts him in a bad position at least, and at worst would be disastrous.

Agree, lets not forget that VT is designed and guided to fight ALL systems not one. If you are making such big angles inside a guy to engage an arm you're leaving yourself open. As a tactical idea ??

[Wayfaring]

Please explain.

Graham has an unhealthy attachment to sheep?

[Ali. R]

Graham has an unhealthy attachment to sheep?

That was very good.

LMAO,

[k gledhill]

This a sequence WSL showed to avoid, why I mentioned angles wrong and following punch...

[Phil Redmond]

Yep... utter nonsense!!

What he should be doing is showing his unmatched chi-sao skills, with compliant students, on endless youtube clips!!

Oh, too late.... someone has already done that

Where's this animosity coming from? We've never met and I've done nothing to you. In all my years in the martial arts I've never badmouthed, trash talked, insulted, etc., another martial artist. Even when I see something I disagree with. I like to keep peace in our diverse Wing Chun family and follow Mo Duk. But that's me. :-)

[Phil Redmond]

This a sequence WSL showed to avoid, why I mentioned angles wrong and following punch...

He's using centerline principles which is all good. I was using central line. There's a difference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdOmnxmnfv8

[k gledhill]

Let's do some image snapping.

Is this not the image in the Wing Chun Dictionary entry for "Chasing Hands"?

I wouldn't want to find myself in such a position, especially not intentionally thinking it is good and I'm gonna pull off a few more moves before the next hand comes.

This is what I see. A guy stopping from hitting with the following hand. If he feints you to do this ... Then what ?

[Bacon]

Where's this animosity coming from? We've never met and I've done nothing to you. In all my years in the martial arts I've never badmouthed, trash talked, insulted, etc., another martial artist. Even when I see something I disagree with. I like to keep peace in our diverse Wing Chun family and follow Mo Duk. But that's me. :-)

I like mo duk too. I also like mo chicken, mo turkey, and mo gravy. Seriously Phil it's not animosity. We think what you showed violates some of the basic principles of wing chun and we're saying so and saying why. Anyone who does any insulting or name calling is straight out the window but there's nothing wrong with objectively dissecting what we consider very bad technique.

[GlennR]

Where's this animosity coming from? We've never met and I've done nothing to you. In all my years in the martial arts I've never badmouthed, trash talked, insulted, etc., another martial artist. Even when I see something I disagree with. I like to keep peace in our diverse Wing Chun family and follow Mo Duk. But that's me. :-)

Phil, youve now replied to this twice and missed my reply.. it was a joke aimed at G and K

[Eric_H]

We have a similar technique in our dummy form. I don't see anything wrong with the idea of the application.

The structure doesn't pass to HFY spec, nor does the stance or footwork, but Phil doesn't do HFY - so what can I really say about it other than i disagree based on lineage?

One bigger difference spatially is when we will pull the arm out to the wrist before circling the bridge - we tend to move more laterally than front to back as Phil does here. Gets you further away from that other arm and leaves you in a better position for striking IMO.

[wingchunIan]

Where's this animosity coming from? We've never met and I've done nothing to you. In all my years in the martial arts I've never badmouthed, trash talked, insulted, etc., another martial artist. Even when I see something I disagree with. I like to keep peace in our diverse Wing Chun family and follow Mo Duk. But that's me. :-)

Phil, think you might owe Glen an apology, you clearly didn't read his post properly before posting. He was actually having a dig at others and in effect fighting your corner by defending your post. Go back and read what he wrote, then read his next post and I think you will agree.

[wingchunIan]

Now insofar as "four techniques", tell that to any Pa Kua or Hsing I practitioner who utilizes an-chi-lo-fan. Ask them if they are doing four techniques. They will tell you it is one technique. In similar vein, Phil does one technique. It can be broken down into different parts for teaching purposes but when it comes to application, it is one technique. And of course he would want to get to the outside with a CLF practitioner because the opponent has just laterally crossed his center line setting him up for a checkmate. Phil solutions that brilliantly and I applaud him for engaging with strangers who do not fight his style.

Your post above illustrates well that you don't do or for that matter understand wing chin. Compound movements or strings of moves however you wish to describe them are in violation of the wing chun principles of taking the most direct route to the centre and the principle of economy of motion. Why use multiple stages when one will do. Not commenting on what Phil was doing in his clip merely high lighting why your analogies of other arts are flawed.

[GlennR]

Phil, think you might owe Glen an apology, you clearly didn't read his post properly before posting. He was actually having a dig at others and in effect fighting your corner by defending your post. Go back and read what he wrote, then read his next post and I think you will agree.

Thanks Ian, you got it in one.

On re reading what i wrote i can see how Phil thought i was having a dig at him but i thought my explanation would have sorted that

Not to worry.... im actually a big fan of Phils