Most important part of learning

[Jimbo]

Indeed.
Most people's idea of tradition is somewhere along the lines of:
Must have kung fu uniform and learn from asian teacher !

I think you can add to that, must dispense fortune cookie quotes.

[pazman]

When I was young and did not know any better I did.

Robinhood, you're a ****ing insult to Chinese martial arts.

[pazman]

When you go to the gym you can the see only people who care about their health and fitness are the one who include deadlift in their workout routine.

The gym I joined in Wuhan had very few people who did deadlift. Two people I always saw doing deadlift one or twice a week was a taiji teacher and his student. He was never too keen on talking with me, but he was nice enough. One of things he said to me was "if you don't train strength, you don't have gongfu."

[David Jamieson]

No I believe that fighting in the most open ruleset available, in a full contact environment, against skilled resistant opponents is the best test of one's art and one's skills. The folks who were successful in more open rulesets like Pride are the same ones who are successful in the slightly more restrictive unified rules.

There's not a lot of difference in those. Say, what do you think of pro boxing? All those guys useless too because they lack legs and ground work? It's a sport. Your belief about fighting is rendered invalid by your own statement here.

It's the most open ruleset avalable and the most reaalistic venue to showcase and test combative skills. TCMA doesn't deal with the self defence aspects outside of combative techniques any better than it deal with combative techniques. There are schools which do that quite impressively and they're not TCMA.

There are no weapons, there are plenty of rules. Your scope is very limited if you think this is the measure of man and his ability to make violence on another. It's sport. there's no combat football either, but it's got violence too....

The proof is in the pudding. Beat high level competitors when you have only trained TCMA and you prove it's effectiveness.

Oxymoronic phrasology you have chosen. How does on bring tcma into an mma format without allowing tcma it's treasures? IE: weapons? If your sport is greater than my TCMA, then bring your BJJ and I will bring my sword. We'll see how you measure up. Now, that sounds stupid right? Look to your own commentary as that sinks in.

As I've said I can provide numerous examples of people who have won in fairly open rulesets who have only trained in modern, progressive fighting styles. I'm challenging others to do the same and they cannot. That is all. You and others only view me as a troll because I'm challenging a complacent view of things, asking for evidence and all people can put up are excuses.

You're not actually challenging anything. You're once again, like so many others before you, comparing apples to oranges and declaring yourself to be more able minded in doing so. Judokas suck at boxing, why don't they put more boxing into their art. It's stupid that they only throw. < This is actually what you are doing.

I don't hate them but if they want to be taken seriously they need to step up to the plate and quit making excuses.

No. You hate them. Just admit it and move on. You'll feel better. Your words are poorly veiled and you are quite apparent.

Martial arts requires work. I know this may be news to some folks.

You would like to think so I'm sure. You say a lot of silly things like this. You do realize that there are people here reading your dreck that have been working at it for a long time right? But hey, why don't you just disregard that and continue to shoot off from the hip about a subject it is more and more clear you know little about.

So all of the hobbyists go to TCMA and all of the folks actually interested in fighting go to the fighting arts. That's what you're saying?

Not at all. I can point to many mma schools that have huge rollovers in students due to...well, usually they don't like to be hit. lol In mma clubs, they get hit a lot sooner and so, those clubs have higher turn off. Wrestling or grappling gyms, not so much because people don't hit each other in those places so much. I've btdt, got the shirt and still see it frequently. You think someone is better for pursuing mma? I'd say their length of study will statistically be shorter than someone who chose a traditional art, but even then, people drop out.

So you have large populations in the progressive fighting arts and TCMA and of the two only one can produce winning fighters. See an issue there?

"progressive" what's that? You got an extra arm or something. I don't see mma guys doing well in TCMA tournaments. In fact, they almost never show up to compete or even to try out. I think it's because they don't know any tcma and have nothing to offer or something? What do you think?

Those are all training components. Now if you were talking about something like bladed weapons like swords, spears, etc in regard to competition then you have a valid reason for dismissing competition as you have a huge change in mechanics, targets, necessary follow through, which techniques will stop retaliation etc. But with hand to hand combat that just doesn't fit.

TCMA spends more time with weapons at the high end. So...what do?

So how come TCMA can't win?

Who says it can't? You ever boxed a guy with a sword? Have you won? In anything?

That's a bad analogy. Combat effectiveness is the basis of martial arts. If you don't have that it may as well be a bridge club. A car drives on the road. The guy wants a Ford but it has no wheels.

Empty hand fighting is not combat effective dude. Don't know why you think it is, but empty hand fighting is the most INEFFECTIVE method of combat known to man bar none.

[LaRoux]

MMA is not combat effectiveness, it is just a sport, the rules have eliminated most efficient effective martial moves. If you don't know or can't do them, then you will dwell on only the physical attributes of combat , which are just strong beats weak and fast beats slow , which has very little to do with TCMA, but works great in sporting events.

MMA does show who is tougher and in better shape at the time, but not much high level martial skill, more like high level brute force skill, there are exceptions also, like Machida and Anderson Silva , and probably few more, but take it for what it is, sport fighting, not efficient effective fighting.

I present Exhibit A of why so many people think TCMA practitioners are so out of touch with reality.

[Robinhood]

Robinhood, you're a ****ing insult to Chinese martial arts.

Coming from you and your limited experience and knowledge , your opinion is next to worthless, " the empty vessel bellows loudest" seems to apply a lot in most forums.

[Robinhood]

I present Exhibit A of why so many people think TCMA practitioners are so out of touch with reality.

The majority of people are always clueless, who cares what they think, its what's true that counts.

If you are in the majority then you are probably one of the clueless ,

[LaRoux]

Traditional- focusing on attempting to keep the "flavor" of your style.

Modern- focusing on using what works.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Traditional- focusing on attempting to keep the "flavor" of your style.

Modern- focusing on using what works.

That is what it has become, but not what it used to be.
A lack of evolution is what has happened in some circles and the reason is natural selection.
Because certain systems MUST fight to survive, natural selection makes them be effective and what isn't to be "disregarded".
Those that do not fight to survive, the process of natural selection is less active ( if active at all) and as such they do no evolve as they should.

[Robinhood]

Traditional- focusing on attempting to keep the "flavor" of your style.

Modern- focusing on using what works.

A style is just a training tool, don't get attached to the tool.

[Bacon]

There's not a lot of difference in those. Say, what do you think of pro boxing? All those guys useless too because they lack legs and ground work? It's a sport. Your belief about fighting is rendered invalid by your own statement here.

You're not actually challenging anything. You're once again, like so many others before you, comparing apples to oranges and declaring yourself to be more able minded in doing so. Judokas suck at boxing, why don't they put more boxing into their art. It's stupid that they only throw. < This is actually what you are doing.

Isolating an area of combat is not a problem boxing and judo are effective when integrated into freer rulesets. Wrestling does the same thing. They're all very effective in more open ruleset.

There are no weapons, there are plenty of rules. Your scope is very limited if you think this is the measure of man and his ability to make violence on another. It's sport. there's no combat football either, but it's got violence too....

Oxymoronic phrasology you have chosen. How does on bring tcma into an mma format without allowing tcma it's treasures? IE: weapons? If your sport is greater than my TCMA, then bring your BJJ and I will bring my sword. We'll see how you measure up. Now, that sounds stupid right? Look to your own commentary as that sinks in.

We're talking about empty handed combat. Essentially what you're saying is that your empty handed combat is ineffective and you have to overcompensate by bringing a weapon into unarmed combat.
If you feel the rules are too constrictive by disallowing weapons and restricting certain targets/strikes and so on then do like the Gracies did and create your own fighting competition which allows those things.

No. You hate them. Just admit it and move on. You'll feel better. Your words are poorly veiled and you are quite apparent.

Nope. I'd love to see them succeed but until they ge toff their complacent backsides that will never happen.

Not at all. I can point to many mma schools that have huge rollovers in students due to...well, usually they don't like to be hit. lol In mma clubs, they get hit a lot sooner and so, those clubs have higher turn off. Wrestling or grappling gyms, not so much because people don't hit each other in those places so much. I've btdt, got the shirt and still see it frequently. You think someone is better for pursuing mma? I'd say their length of study will statistically be shorter than someone who chose a traditional art, but even then, people drop out.

If folks don't like getting thrown, choked, submitted, and hit then they have no place in martial arts. Martial arts are about combat and if you can't deal then you shouldn't be in it.

"progressive" what's that? You got an extra arm or something. I don't see mma guys doing well in TCMA tournaments. In fact, they almost never show up to compete or even to try out. I think it's because they don't know any tcma and have nothing to offer or something? What do you think?

It means using modern training methods and materials.
As far as mma fighter going to TCMA tournaments, mma is the ruleset with the high level fighters and the high viewership. The big boys don't step down from the small stage to fight on the little one. You have to step UP.

TCMA spends more time with weapons at the high end. So...what do?

Like I said if that is why the hand techniques are inadequate then you need to be honest about that. And if weapons are really where TCMA's real skill lies then you need to quit arguining that it can hold its own with these other arts when it clearly can't. If you want to showcase the weapons skills then create a way to do so.

Who says it can't? You ever boxed a guy with a sword? Have you won? In anything?

And you carry one around all the time? That's moron talk and you know it.

Empty hand fighting is not combat effective dude. Don't know why you think it is, but empty hand fighting is the most INEFFECTIVE method of combat known to man bar none.

Yes, people use weapons to gain an advantage but TCMA also trains empty handed because you won't always have a weapon and even when you do you need empty handed skills to support it, it just can't hold its own in that arena. If you want to showcase weapons skills, find a way to do so but don't tell me TCMA can hold its own in empty handed combat with these arts when it clearly can't.

[LaRoux]

Empty hand fighting is not combat effective dude. Don't know why you think it is, but empty hand fighting is the most INEFFECTIVE method of combat known to man bar none.

You are right about empty hand fighting is not very effective compared to fighting with weapons.

However, when it comes to weapons, the shortcomings with TCMA weapons is even more pronounced than it is with empty-hand training. Very rarely will you ever see TCMA weapons practitioners practice, train, and spar full contact against each other.

[pazman]

Coming from you and your limited experience and knowledge , your opinion is next to worthless, " the empty vessel bellows loudest" seems to apply a lot in most forums.

When you stop wearing women's underwear and demonstrate a basic level of understanding of cma, then perhaps someday your opinion can be listened to.

[Robinhood]

When you stop wearing women's underwear and demonstrate a basic level of understanding of cma, then perhaps someday your opinion can be listened to.

Looking in the mirror again ., LOL, speak for yourself, Your posts give away your lack of experience and knowledge , maybe 3 to 6 years, anything over that and you have been wasting your time.

[David Jamieson]

You are right about empty hand fighting is not very effective compared to fighting with weapons.

However, when it comes to weapons, the shortcomings with TCMA weapons is even more pronounced than it is with empty-hand training. Very rarely will you ever see TCMA weapons practitioners practice, train, and spar full contact against each other.

I disagree. I have a Pell. What do you use for full force striking and weapon retention?

Sparring can be carried out in various formats with bamboo or foam replacements. I prefer to fence, attack the pell and learn positioning and technique.

Knife fighting is not hard to figure out how to spar effectively and to say "full contact weapon sparring" is to denote an unknowing of how to properly train a weapon. No offense, but that very idea is what I am suggesting is quite wrong about what people think training is or fighting is. They are not one in the same.

If you are advanced in years in TCMA and have not really grasped understanding of staff or sword, I'd say you got burned along the way. ALL tcma of any merit have weapons training. SanDa being the sport aspect, doesn't contain this.

If I was a college guy who drank at the bar a lot, i'd give some merit to the idea of value in understanding fisticuffs. But as a guy hitting 50 who's done some living, I see that kind of thinking and naught more than bizarre really, filled with ego and generally spouted by people who have done no such thing as they claim. lol