Most important part of learning

[LaRoux]

it depends on why you talk to, traditional thai clinch work isnt just the plum, thy use underhooks overhooks ****zers etc just like a normal clinch, western thai mainly uses the plum thats for sure, but its not the only position, im just saying he might have meant this, but im inclined to think he did mean the double neck tie

Maybe, but either way, I don't think any of these clinch variations could be considered to be the techniques of the system that have "holes" in them.

[Frost]

Maybe, but either way, I don't think any of these clinch variations could be considered to be the techniques of the system that have "holes" in them.

true but the headlock makes more sense from 50/50 than the plum so maybe he meant that, still as you say the headlock even from there is a risky move in both MMA and sub grappling

[Syn7]

OK, please enlighten me on how you are simply going to position yourself into an over-under without getting out of the plum in the first place.

Hips in, head up, drop and turn hips, push right hand thru the inside to behind the neck.... I'm sure you can figure out the rest. Like I said, it's not rocket science.

[Syn7]

MT clinch is a misnomer. That's all. Many mean the plum, but really it doesn't mean anything. Thats like saying an MMA clinch. WTF does that mean, right?

Swimming.

[LaRoux]

Hips in, head up, drop and turn hips, push right hand thru the inside to behind the neck.... I'm sure you can figure out the rest. Like I said, it's not rocket science.

Yep, escape the plum.

Of course, it's a lot easier if you duck the shoulder under. Kind of hard to get behind the neck when your shoulder is outside the opponent's elbow.

[Frost]

MT clinch is a misnomer. That's all. Many mean the plum, but really it doesn't mean anything. Thats like saying an MMA clinch. WTF does that mean, right?

Swimming.

the plum actually means to wrestle but most people as you well know when they say the thai plum or thai clinch mean the double neck tie......rightly or wrongly thats what the thai clinch and plum is seen as these days

[Syn7]

Yep, escape the plum.

Of course, it's a lot easier if you duck the shoulder under. Kind of hard to get behind the neck when your shoulder is outside the opponent's elbow.

Yeah, when you drop your level and turn your hips, your shoulder turns in too. You swim in with the lead hand depending on which way you drop. When you come back up you have a whole bunch of choices. Usually I try to take my own double collar tie. But, I mean, it really depends who you're up against. Sometimes all you can do is break out. If you're consistently getting your ass handed to you on the inside, best start dancing.

[Syn7]

the plum actually means to wrestle but most people as you well know when they say the thai plum or thai clinch mean the double neck tie......rightly or wrongly thats what the thai clinch and plum is seen as these days

Yeah I learned the wrestling term first. So its always been a collar tie to me.

Blame it on poorly informed commentators.

[Kellen Bassette]

Kickboxing is kind of confusing, considering the different rulesets that evolved in different countries.

US kickboxing required a certain number of kicks in each round and kicks were only allowed above the waist.

Japanese kickboxing originally was Kyokushin karate, which evolved into Muay Thai rules after the Japanese fought the Thais.

European kickboxing evolved from Japanese/Thai kickboxing.

I'm actually surprised how many people don't know kickboxing was born from Karate.

[Bacon]

there's an exception to every extreme.
Benny "the Jet" Urquidez. He's mixed in nothing but traditional arts: : judo, kajukenbo, shotokan, taekwondo, lima lama, white crane kung fu, jujutsu, aikido, and karate and he is the founder of Ukidokan Karate.

Judo is progressive and so is aikido. They are not considered traditional as they are not koryu.
Kajukenbo is a mix of styles and considered one of the founding influences of MMA.
Shotokan is non-traditional. Karate in general means nothing without knowing which ryu and his own style is certainly non-traditional.
Jujitsu would depend on which ryu and whether it's koryu.
Taekwondo is an evolution of Shotokan and is not traditional.

Yes, but you tend to describe everything in too much extreme so I'm pointing out that yes there have been some guys who claim nothing but traditional arts that did very well in full contact fighting. And a couple that even credit kung fu as a base.

plus you talk of kickboxing as thai boxing only according to your posts. I could ad Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis to the mix of traditional. There's also Jim Kelly.

Now tell me those folks who won in kickboxing did nothing but TCMA training and no modern kickboxing training. Please. I'd love to hear you say it because you'd know it's a lie.

[EarthDragon]

Judo is progressive and so is aikido. They are not considered traditional as they are not koryu.

what nullifies them as traditional? most styles in japan came after the 1800's and they are still considered traditional.

Kajukenbo is a mix of styles and considered one of the founding influences of MMA.
Shotokan is non-traditional. Karate in general means nothing without knowing which ryu and his own style is certainly non-traditional.
Jujitsu would depend on which ryu and whether it's koryu.
Taekwondo is an evolution of Shotokan and is not traditional.

these in today's world are all considered TJMA except obviously TKD

[Kellen Bassette]

Judo is progressive and so is aikido. They are not considered traditional as they are not koryu.
Kajukenbo is a mix of styles and considered one of the founding influences of MMA.
Shotokan is non-traditional. Karate in general means nothing without knowing which ryu and his own style is certainly non-traditional.
Jujitsu would depend on which ryu and whether it's koryu.
Taekwondo is an evolution of Shotokan and is not traditional.

All those arts are considered traditional in the popular sense.

[Bacon]

what nullifies them as traditional? most styles in japan came after the 1800's and they are still considered traditional.

They're gendai budo, not koryu.

these in today's world are all considered TJMA except obviously TKD

Kajukenbo is from Hawaii and is a fairly recent mix of several martial arts. Shotokan is genda budo not koryu. The jujitsu would depend on the ryu as to whether it's koryu or gendai budo and we've already eliminated TKD.

And Kellen popular opinion doesn't mean a thing because the masses are generally uneducated about martial history.

In any case it's a moot point. These are not TCMA so it's not exactly an argument in favour of TCMA.

[Kellen Bassette]

And Kellen popular opinion doesn't mean a thing because the masses are generally uneducated about martial history.

Well, I'd like to agree with you, but it certainly influences how we talk about them. For instance, BJJ began in 1914...it's older than most of our "traditional Karates" at least in name and founding of organizations. But very few consider it traditional.

Shotokan is Japanese, not Okinawan, but it's as old as a lot of the Ryu styles.

Muay Thai may be 500, maybe 2500 years old, depends who you ask...much older than most TOMA and TJMA, but we still consider it modern. Even after adopting western ring and rules, it's still as old as most Karate.

Boxing by all rights should be traditional, it's considerably older than most of the arts you listed. We consider it modern. I think most martial artists when asked would call Shotokan, Judo, Aikido and TKD "traditional".

[MightyB]

Early BJJ tournaments would have most of the auditorium booing if anyone went for a footlock.

Of course one could (and many do) make a valid argument that tournaments were a de-evolution of BJJ.

Actually I believe the exact opposite. I think BJJ is much more dynamic than what I've seen on the early tapes - old vale tudo and Gracie challenge. The older stuff looked just like Judo Newaza, very little to differentiate it from Judo, just the 80/20 rule - where Judo emphasized 80 percent throwing, BJJ emphasized 80 percent Newaza. Now I say BJJ really has come into it's own - which is a good thing in my opinion because the techniques they are developing and the athleticism is pretty cool.