Most important part of learning

[MightyB]

Judo is progressive and so is aikido. They are not considered traditional as they are not koryu.
Kajukenbo is a mix of styles and considered one of the founding influences of MMA.
Shotokan is non-traditional. Karate in general means nothing without knowing which ryu and his own style is certainly non-traditional.
Jujitsu would depend on which ryu and whether it's koryu.
Taekwondo is an evolution of Shotokan and is not traditional.




Now tell me those folks who won in kickboxing did nothing but TCMA training and no modern kickboxing training. Please. I'd love to hear you say it because you'd know it's a lie.

aren't we full of p*ss and vinegar this morning.

All the above were born out of traditional arts and are an example of martial tradition in motion. Where a TCMA school goes wrong or any traditional school for that matter, is when they get stuck in the past with no regards for the present or future. This isn't new. But all of the above are still traditional martial arts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Any MA with a tradition is correctly a TMA.
The fact is that there is no universal definition of TMA.
If you go by age then there are no MA more traditional than boxing and wrestling.
Koryu are the "old school" bujjtsu arts , typically those before the Meji restoration of the 19th century.
Budo arts ARE still TMA but are not koryu systems.
Judo is a TMA, it is over 100 years old.
Karate proper is very old too, with shotokan ( the oldest "registered" style being founded in the 1930's) but the various styles of "TE" being far older than that.
TKD is from the 50's so it to can be viewed as a tradtional art in the sense that it has a few generations already.
Again, you need to define traditional before you make a comment on whether a system is or isn't.

[Bacon]

Again the argument of whether those we traditional or not is a different subject entirely but how folks are quoting people who trained non-TCMA as somehow a good thing for TCMA is beyond me.

Oh and MightyB Muay Thai is less than a hundred years old. You're thinking of its ancestral style Muay Boran.

And sanjuro if you want to go that way then let's ignore traditional versus non-traditional entirely. In that case the only CMAs which are successful a those making use of modern training methods like sanda.

[Jimbo]

Regarding what is traditional/non-traditional, what is the cutoff date, then? What year separates which art is or isn't traditional? Also, all arts in existence today are a mix of what the developers felt were the best skills from older MAs. And they are all constantly evolving to some degree or other. One clear example is CLF; it is clearly a mixed martial art, but because it's a CMA, for some odd reason some people will say that it isn't.

In CMA, it would be ridiculous to think that what we see today is the same as 500 or even 100 years ago. Nothing can exist in a total vacuum.

I say this as someone who fully supports the concept of MMA because, if it truly means "mixed martial arts", then in order to remain relevant, whether in-ring or not, every art must grow in its own way. Each individual in every art will also be different based on their own past experiences in other arts, if any.

[David Jamieson]

Again the argument of whether those we traditional or not is a different subject entirely but how folks are quoting people who trained non-TCMA as somehow a good thing for TCMA is beyond me.

Oh and MightyB Muay Thai is less than a hundred years old. You're thinking of its ancestral style Muay Boran.

And sanjuro if you want to go that way then let's ignore traditional versus non-traditional entirely. In that case the only CMAs which are successful a those making use of modern training methods like sanda.

You believe that competitive fighting a la mma rules is the pinnacle of martial arts.

That's fine. You are entitled to believe that but quite frankly that is the pinnacle of competitive martial arts as held within that venue.

None of it deals with all the other aspects or different martial arts out there.

BJJ, MT, Judo and Boxing in't the only martial arts going.

You also have a tendency to dismiss outright anything that someone presents to you as valid because it doesn't fall into your artificial construct.

To that end, you are acting like a troll and not really contributing anything here. And yes, the onus is on you when you make demands to have a few placed on you as well.

So far, you have not. Which is pretty much keeping you at the level of troll and you are drudging up the same old same old crap that gets old and tired.

Traditional arts have been around for a long time. they aren't going to go away because of your weird hatred of them and you aren't going to change many minds here as most guys that practice, that actually practice have already adjusted their understanding to that reality.

IE: I can think of a few guys who run TCMA schools that have MMA classes running and that have worked for and earned their bjj belts etc in order to get into that popular sport thing that people are interested in because of tv and usually lose interest in the first time they get cracked in the face on the mat. And yes, that happens too.

I know how hard it is to find a regular sparring partner. It's hard! You make it sound like everyone should just be able to find that easily. Not true.

Even with the rise in white collar boxers, it is hard to find a decent sparring partner. How much of your training cycle is live full contact sparing anyway? If you are on a circuit and getting paid, I would expect that to be in your regimen, but if you are a hobbyist, like 99% of all people studying martial arts, then the varietal garden of martial arts is way more important and ring sparring sessions are actually not that useful to you in your development or interest.

Further to that, even the greatest sport fighter in the world only get's his day for a while. Most of the people who practice mma don't fight pro. Heck, they don't even fight amateur. They just go to walmart and mimic GSP for 30 minutes or something.

I prefer a full well rounded study that includes books, swords, boxing, kickboxing, sharing, exercise, and all that other stuff. Much more rewarding.

This whole sport vs Traditional is a tired old washed up subject. Everything is everything and everything has something of value in it to be learned provided that is what the individual wants.

If a guy wants a Ford, he doesn't care how great you think a Toyota is. That's the bottom line. good old car analogies.

[EarthDragon]

Regarding what is traditional/non-traditional, what is the cutoff date, then? What year separates which art is or isn't traditional? Also, all arts in existence today are a mix of what the developers felt were the best skills from older MAs. And they are all constantly evolving to some degree or other. One clear example is CLF; it is clearly a mixed martial art, but because it's a CMA, for some odd reason some people will say that it isn't.

In CMA, it would be ridiculous to think that what we see today is the same as 500 or even 100 years ago. Nothing can exist in a total vacuum.

I say this as someone who fully supports the concept of MMA because, if it truly means "mixed martial arts", then in order to remain relevant, whether in-ring or not, every art must grow in its own way. Each individual in every art will also be different based on their own past experiences in other arts, if any.
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great post jimbo, that basically clears up Bacon confusion.
also great post David, it is what it is even if you dont know what "IT" is right?

[MightyB]

Again the argument of whether those we traditional or not is a different subject entirely but how folks are quoting people who trained non-TCMA as somehow a good thing for TCMA is beyond me.

Most every person I quoted has a TCMA background. Wilson - Lama Pai, Long - San Soo (which is combat oriented CLF), Urquidez - White Crane. They all found something in TCMA which they enjoy and credit to their success in the ring.

[sanjuro_ronin]

DJ has ***** slapped the correct.

[Bacon]

You believe that competitive fighting a la mma rules is the pinnacle of martial arts.

No I believe that fighting in the most open ruleset available, in a full contact environment, against skilled resistant opponents is the best test of one's art and one's skills. The folks who were successful in more open rulesets like Pride are the same ones who are successful in the slightly more restrictive unified rules.

That's fine. You are entitled to believe that but quite frankly that is the pinnacle of competitive martial arts as held within that venue.

None of it deals with all the other aspects or different martial arts out there.

It's the most open ruleset avalable and the most reaalistic venue to showcase and test combative skills. TCMA doesn't deal with the self defence aspects outside of combative techniques any better than it deal with combative techniques. There are schools which do that quite impressively and they're not TCMA.

BJJ, MT, Judo and Boxing in't the only martial arts going.

You also have a tendency to dismiss outright anything that someone presents to you as valid because it doesn't fall into your artificial construct.

The proof is in the pudding. Beat high level competitors when you have only trained TCMA and you prove it's effectiveness.

To that end, you are acting like a troll and not really contributing anything here. And yes, the onus is on you when you make demands to have a few placed on you as well.

So far, you have not. Which is pretty much keeping you at the level of troll and you are drudging up the same old same old crap that gets old and tired.

As I've said I can provide numerous examples of people who have won in fairly open rulesets who have only trained in modern, progressive fighting styles. I'm challenging others to do the same and they cannot. That is all. You and others only view me as a troll because I'm challenging a complacent view of things, asking for evidence and all people can put up are excuses.

Traditional arts have been around for a long time. they aren't going to go away because of your weird hatred of them and you aren't going to change many minds here as most guys that practice, that actually practice have already adjusted their understanding to that reality.

I don't hate them but if they want to be taken seriously they need to step up to the plate and quit making excuses.

I know how hard it is to find a regular sparring partner. It's hard! You make it sound like everyone should just be able to find that easily. Not true.

Martial arts requires work. I know this may be news to some folks.

Even with the rise in white collar boxers, it is hard to find a decent sparring partner. How much of your training cycle is live full contact sparing anyway? If you are on a circuit and getting paid, I would expect that to be in your regimen, but if you are a hobbyist, like 99% of all people studying martial arts, then the varietal garden of martial arts is way more important and ring sparring sessions are actually not that useful to you in your development or interest.

So all of the hobbyists go to TCMA and all of the folks actually interested in fighting go to the fighting arts. That's what you're saying?

Further to that, even the greatest sport fighter in the world only get's his day for a while. Most of the people who practice mma don't fight pro. Heck, they don't even fight amateur. They just go to walmart and mimic GSP for 30 minutes or something.

So you have large populations in the progressive fighting arts and TCMA and of the two only one can produce winning fighters. See an issue there?

I prefer a full well rounded study that includes books, swords, boxing, kickboxing, sharing, exercise, and all that other stuff. Much more rewarding.

Those are all training components. Now if you were talking about something like bladed weapons like swords, spears, etc in regard to competition then you have a valid reason for dismissing competition as you have a huge change in mechanics, targets, necessary follow through, which techniques will stop retaliation etc. But with hand to hand combat that just doesn't fit.

This whole sport vs Traditional is a tired old washed up subject. Everything is everything and everything has something of value in it to be learned provided that is what the individual wants.

So how come TCMA can't win?

If a guy wants a Ford, he doesn't care how great you think a Toyota is. That's the bottom line. good old car analogies.

That's a bad analogy. Combat effectiveness is the basis of martial arts. If you don't have that it may as well be a bridge club. A car drives on the road. The guy wants a Ford but it has no wheels.

[MightyB]

The proof is in the pudding. Beat high level competitors when you have only trained TCMA and you prove it's effectiveness.

So you have large populations in the progressive fighting arts and TCMA and of the two only one can produce winning fighters. See an issue there?

So how come TCMA can't win?

This is an unfair argument that really needs to stop on this forum. Not just from you but all MMA vs TCMA trollers.

No person at a high level, or even a mid level is an island, and nobody does just one MA if they're competitive. You find different coaches for different aspects of the game. I very much believe that we'll start seeing more people with unique MA backgrounds that will include TCMA in the future of sports combat.

[Bacon]

This is an unfair argument that really needs to stop on this forum. Not just from you but all MMA vs TCMA trollers.

No person at a high level, or even a mid level is an island, and nobody does just one MA if they're competitive. You find different coaches for different aspects of the game. I very much believe that we'll start seeing more people with unique MA backgrounds that will include TCMA in the future of sports combat.

But until they start winning by fighting like something other than kickboxing when they started in a TCMA, then folks will always say that they're kickboxing because that's exactly what they're doing.

If mantis was the dominant style of striking and I trained in boxing but it lode like mantis when I fought we'd be on opposite ends of this discussion.

And again, MMA isn't a style but a ruleset. It's about TCMA versus progressive fighting methods. Boxing, kickboxing, Thai boxing, wrestling, bjj, and the occasional appearances of sambo, judo, and karate. TCMAers are always welcome to try to win in MMA.

[MightyB]

But until they start winning by fighting like something other than kickboxing when they started in a TCMA, then folks will always say that they're kickboxing because that's exactly what they're doing.

If mantis was the dominant style of striking and I trained in boxing but it lode like mantis when I fought we'd be on opposite ends of this discussion.

And again, MMA isn't a style but a ruleset. It's about TCMA versus progressive fighting methods. Boxing, kickboxing, Thai boxing, wrestling, bjj, and the occasional appearances of sambo, judo, and karate. TCMAers are always welcome to try to win in MMA.

It isn't traditional per se, but you are already seeing San Da (Cung Le) entering into the MMA world. I think the next logical Traditional Chinese Art to be represented will be Shuai Jiao. IMO, none of the overspecialized arts will have much of a chance, but shaolin long fist and CLF could get some representation.

[Robinhood]

MMA is not combat effectiveness, it is just a sport, the rules have eliminated most efficient effective martial moves. If you don't know or can't do them, then you will dwell on only the physical attributes of combat , which are just strong beats weak and fast beats slow , which has very little to do with TCMA, but works great in sporting events.

MMA does show who is tougher and in better shape at the time, but not much high level martial skill, more like high level brute force skill, there are exceptions also, like Machida and Anderson Silva , and probably few more, but take it for what it is, sport fighting, not efficient effective fighting.

[bawang]

the most important part of learning is to fail, so you can learn from your mistakes.

[MightyB]

MMA is not combat effectiveness, it is just a sport, the rules have eliminated most efficient effective martial moves. If you don't know or can't do them, then you will dwell on only the physical attributes of combat , which are just strong beats weak and fast beats slow , which has very little to do with TCMA, but works great in sporting events.

You need to drop this belief if you want to see TCMA make it to the next level. This thought process holds the TCMA arts back.

If you go to Japan and say you do Judo or Karate, most people will respond with "you must be very strong". Think about this.