"Crap" in Wing Chun?

[Shaolindynasty]

I dont practice wing chun myself and cant really comment on the system as a whole but i can say that having sparred and fought with a variety of martial artists of differing backgrounds i have found that i feel the most pressure and have the most difficulty sparring against the ving tsun practitioners at my sifus school(ng family Chinese martial arts association) . That being the case i believe it can be an extremely effective system on the right hands and with the right training.

For what its worth

[Ali. R]

You've got guys promoting ‘Wing Chun’ as a combat/fighting art, and then keep their classes always on a certain format of softness, then brainwash their students with ‘chi sao’ and ‘drills’ and with the almighty ‘wooden dummy’ in the corner, while they’re both developing a false sense of security with patty cake ideas. While all along pimping their situation with photo’s and name dropping (business as usual), which is nothing wrong with that, but never sparing with their students because they never learned how themselves. I’m telling you the truth, been a sifu from the age of 23, and it took me 8 years to do it (I’m old school). And that was just at ‘wooden man’ level, I’m 48 now (master). And just because of my ability I’ve caught h3ll within wing chun politics.

I didn’t learn from a bunch of seminars but hands on for over 25 years and from one sifu. But I’ll like the say this before I really get started: the reason why wing chun wouldn’t look like in form is because most scary a$$ practitioners can’t keep their stance, you’re only as good as your stance, and if you break that then all other structures will follow as well as the right wing chun mentality (their timing and positioning will always be fu*ked), and that’s what usually happens if one can’t move their feet or has mobility problems like a stick in their a$$, so therefore the feet can’t follow the hands; while never developing the idea of grace under pressure. Therefore one would never developing heart from their goofy a$$ endeavors.

I think it’s a shame though, on how most guys walk in a wing chun school and don’t take their curiosity beyond name dropping (if they want to learn to fight). If the sifu is really good he shouldn’t hurt you at all, but will dominate the situation with control and positioning no matter how hard you come at him, and he should be able to blow your sh1t out with good form; and that’s without him telling you which hand to throw or what to do while showing his prowess in combat or fighting.

If you’re there just to fight him he would know the difference because he teaches and promotes it as a fighting/combat art and should deal with you on whatever bases, right? But, if he backs down from a small sparing match then you’ll know what you’re getting into. Nine times out of ten he’ll back down by saying he don’t want to hurt you, but if he’s good enough, like I said; that’s shouldn’t be a factor at all and he’ll do it with good form and everything to boot (a beautiful situation).

A good sifu will show you how and not tell you. This is why wing chun can be a bunch of crap. I’m telling you the truth, all you have to do is asks your sifu to spar with you and if he starts to look like an idiot and begin flailing his hands around with uncertainness and without good purpose and balance while looking awkward at the same time; then there you go. I’ve boxed for many years and I’ve been told by many; “you simply look beautiful” , and that’s because I’ve never lost my balance and always kept my stance, while moving my feet like a welterweight . Just look at the boxers that can’t move their feet properly and you can’t tell what the h3ll their doing, and the same goes for wing chun.

[R0NiN]

it depends on the intrusctor/lineage really, i personally believe Duncan Leung lineage is the best but thats my opinion.

[Grumblegeezer]

it depends on the intrusctor/lineage really, i personally believe Duncan Leung lineage is the best but thats my opinion.

Why do you believe this?

[Phil Redmond]

Agree !! a huge majority of VT is complete cr*p.

Then why do you teach/study it? If I felt that way I'd study another art.

[Phil Redmond]

Why do you believe this?

I studied with Duncan and he's a fighter. But he told me personally that the best fighter he knew was Ah Hing.

[Robinhood]

Like anything else, the best retain quality , not quantity , and are not well known.

Unless you are lucky enough to meet that group, you don't even know they exist.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Shaolindynasty;1208736 That being the case i believe it can be an extremely effective system on the right hands and with the right training.
_____

You got that right.

[anerlich]

Like anything else, the best retain quality , not quantity , and are not well known.

Unless you are lucky enough to meet that group, you don't even know they exist.

Like ANYTHING else?

This seems to a situation unique to TCMA. Most other human endeavours, including most martial arts, grow and evolve through exposure and challenge.

Only TCMA practitioners apparently become great training in secret in their small groups that no one else knows about.

Or so you tell me, maybe I haven't been lucky enough yet.

If an unknown WC practitioner gets knocked down in a secret kwoon, does anybody hear?

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I think that something which is often overlooked is the intent and pressure one applies while doing something.

For example consider a Chin Na or typical joint lock technique. When not applied fully it is possible to apply the technique and find it does not work. However, when applied with full force and speed the same technique which previously "failed" now works as it should or is expected.

In some of my Silat training I learned that what makes some things effective is the constant forward force when applied. When practicing a Juru if you do not have the forward intent the technique or concept will not work as well or sometimes at all.

I believe that the same thing is true with Wing Chun. Often we hear talk about constant forward pressure. However, in application this is not often the case. Without the constant forward intent, once a bridge is established, then a lot of things may not work. This can lead to frustration and lack of confidence in how things are applied and done.

Now please do not misunderstand that I mean to simply always drive forward blindly with no regard to proper structure or forced, but to apply a technique or concept half way will not work in many situations.

In my thinking, a big part of why some things fail is that those who try to apply something do not do it fully or with full intent. There is always a little bit holding back and that is where the opponent gets a slight edge which they may be able to exploit.

Of course, the more highly skilled the opponent the better your structure and technique needs to be to work. The way to develop this proper technique and structure is by slow steady practice with gradually increasing pressure. When one can apply your movements with full forward force and intent and your opponent resists fully then you will see whether something works or not.

I think one of my favorite examples would be the Bic Bo. If you step not so deeply then the move is not as effective. When you step fully, and correctly, your step and forward pressure will in and of itself help to disrupt the opponents balance and structure. The object is to learn the proper amount of pressure and angle to apply. Not too little and not so much that you lose your own structure. However, without the actual full step the result will not provide the best support for your technique. Far easier to show in person but hopefully some of this makes sense.

Please do not take this to mean that Wing Chun is too deadly for the ring or any other such, however when done with full pressure and intent, the art can provide a rather decent and reliable method of combat.

Bottom line is that if you do not execute your movements fully and with proper intent they are far less likely to work. Not a failing of the technique but perhaps of the technician.

A lot of Crap is out there and everyone believes they practice the best approach. Just as everyone is not wrong............everyone is also not right.

[Phil Redmond]

Like ANYTHING else?

This seems to a situation unique to TCMA. Most other human endeavours, including most martial arts, grow and evolve through exposure and challenge.

Only TCMA practitioners apparently become great training in secret in their small groups that no one else knows about.

Or so you tell me, maybe I haven't been lucky enough yet.

If an unknown WC practitioner gets knocked down in a secret kwoon, does anybody hear?

Like I've always said Andrew. You very eloquent for a jock.

[Phil Redmond]

You've got guys promoting ‘Wing Chun’ as a combat/fighting art, and then keep their classes always on a certain format of softness, then brainwash their students with ‘chi sao’ and ‘drills’ and with the almighty ‘wooden dummy’ in the corner, while they’re both developing a false sense of security with patty cake ideas. While all along pimping their situation with photo’s and name dropping (business as usual), which is nothing wrong with that, but never sparing with their students because they never learned how themselves. I’m telling you the truth, been a sifu from the age of 23, and it took me 8 years to do it (I’m old school). And that was just at ‘wooden man’ level, I’m 48 now (master). And just because of my ability I’ve caught h3ll within wing chun politics.

I didn’t learn from a bunch of seminars but hands on for over 25 years and from one sifu. But I’ll like the say this before I really get started: the reason why wing chun wouldn’t look like in form is because most scary a$$ practitioners can’t keep their stance, you’re only as good as your stance, and if you break that then all other structures will follow as well as the right wing chun mentality (their timing and positioning will always be fu*ked), and that’s what usually happens if one can’t move their feet or has mobility problems like a stick in their a$$, so therefore the feet can’t follow the hands; while never developing the idea of grace under pressure. Therefore one would never developing heart from their goofy a$$ endeavors.

I think it’s a shame though, on how most guys walk in a wing chun school and don’t take their curiosity beyond name dropping (if they want to learn to fight). If the sifu is really good he shouldn’t hurt you at all, but will dominate the situation with control and positioning no matter how hard you come at him, and he should be able to blow your sh1t out with good form; and that’s without him telling you which hand to throw or what to do while showing his prowess in combat or fighting.

If you’re there just to fight him he would know the difference because he teaches and promotes it as a fighting/combat art and should deal with you on whatever bases, right? But, if he backs down from a small sparing match then you’ll know what you’re getting into. Nine times out of ten he’ll back down by saying he don’t want to hurt you, but if he’s good enough, like I said; that’s shouldn’t be a factor at all and he’ll do it with good form and everything to boot (a beautiful situation).

A good sifu will show you how and not tell you. This is why wing chun can be a bunch of crap. I’m telling you the truth, all you have to do is asks your sifu to spar with you and if he starts to look like an idiot and begin flailing his hands around with uncertainness and without good purpose and balance while looking awkward at the same time; then there you go. I’ve boxed for many years and I’ve been told by many; “you simply look beautiful” , and that’s because I’ve never lost my balance and always kept my stance, while moving my feet like a welterweight . Just look at the boxers that can’t move their feet properly and you can’t tell what the h3ll their doing, and the same goes for wing chun.

Amen to that.

[wingchunIan]

Amen to that.

Really Phil you agree with that???? The idea of kung fu instructors who are so awesome that they can take on all comers with ease and easily handle them without hurting them is pure fantasy. Much of wing chun like many other arts only really works when done with intent.

[Phil Redmond]

Really Phil you agree with that???? The idea of kung fu instructors who are so awesome that they can take on all comers with ease and easily handle them without hurting them is pure fantasy. Much of wing chun like many other arts only really works when done with intent.

I agree with the fact that a Sifu should be able to deal with an advanced student who is resisting to different degrees. There are so many compliant clips (including mine), where the student isn't trying to hit back. And people use these Chi Sao clips as examples of the certain Sifu's Wing Chun prowess.

[k gledhill]

Then why do you teach/study it? If I felt that way I'd study another art.

I meant the general standards of what is being commercially sold as 'Wing Chun'.