"Crap" in Wing Chun?

[Ali. R]

I agree with the fact that a Sifu should be able to deal with an advanced student who is resisting to different degrees. There are so many compliant clips (including mine), where the student isn't trying to hit back. And people use these Chi Sao clips as examples of the certain Sifu's Wing Chun prowess.

You’re 100% correct on that, if I’m not going to fight/spar. I’ll like to do something in real time (flow) that will display defense, balance, sensitivity, timing and body unity, because I haven’t found a student yet that can get pass my defense unless I'd let them, and they do try very hard to, but it only helps to develop my skill level even more.

I’m not saying that I’m the sh!t (I’m no better than anyone else), but my sifu mainly stressed the idea of defense from a stance point of view, he said; “everyone spends so much time on hitting that they forget to keep from being hit”. Which is very ironic sense the system is more than 80% defense.

[jesper]

its a funny notion that a sifu in TCMA needs to be so **** good fighter.
Nobody expect a boxing trainer to be able to dominate a world class boxer, but in TCMA the trainer has to.

A sifu needs to have a good grasp of the philosify and technical aspect of your style and the ability to pass on the knowledge in a way to produce the desired results.

[Ali. R]

Most good boxing trainers are past ‘Champions’ themselves and even in some cases legends. A ‘Sifu’ is only as good as what he can past down from experience when it comes to combat.

If I’d wanted to learn how to box/fight and had to make a decision between a trainer who has the record of 32 - 3 for 8 – 5, or never fought at all; well,,,,,,,,,, YOU do the math, and I’ll just go with common sense.

[Robinhood]

Really Phil you agree with that???? The idea of kung fu instructors who are so awesome that they can take on all comers with ease and easily handle them without hurting them is pure fantasy. Much of wing chun like many other arts only really works when done with intent.

It usually works like this, the lower skilled the opponent , the more you have to hurt them for them to realise anything. So , most of the time , unless your a masochist , you just teach the lower level practitioners, not hurt them. Eventually they will be at a level that you don't have to hurt them for them to recognize what is effective.

[Ali. R]

Really Phil you agree with that???? The idea of kung fu instructors who are so awesome that they can take on all comers with ease and easily handle them without hurting them is pure fantasy. Much of wing chun like many other arts only really works when done with intent.

It’s not about taking on all comers but potential students, and if one is truly looking for wing chun training to fight with, he would only use the energy/force in which he feels safe with or will soon realize he has a real fight on his hands, and will put up a reasonable sparring match of respect or end up in ICU.

But if he comes there just to fight then he deserves everything he has coming for going there with a small challenge… Some of you guys have to be treated delicately when wrote to, because some will just jump into the far end of reasoning; when common sense should already be guiding you.

Any sifu who teaches “combat” should be able to control a situation of a respectful sparring match (with form) or he’s full of sh1t or respectfully and gracefully of age with proven skills. Other than that he has nothing to show you in the way of “combat”. And if he can’t bring on/pass down fast results of resolve and skill to a student then he is worthless

Here is a student of mines who at time only train for 8 mouths straight (boxing) a big 16 year old then, who never learned how to fight until he met yours truly, sparring someone 14 years older than himself and the guy he’s sparring with is a “Master” in his “combat/fighting” art of 15 years; you be the judge.

[Robinhood]

Here is a student of mines who at time only train for 8 mouths straight (boxing) a big 16 year old then, who never learned how to fight unlit he met yours truly, sparring someone 14 years older than himself and the guy he’s sparring with is a “Master” in his “combat/fighting” art of 15 years; you be the judge.

Master of what? Aikdo, Judo, Archery, obviously not boxing or any contact art!

[Ali. R]

Master of what? Aikdo, Judo, Archery, obviously not boxing or any contact art!

When I’d first met that kid he could barely walk without tripping over his feet, I’ve actually seen him walk across the gym floor and fall for no dam reason at all. Hell,,, I was convinced that he couldn’t even ride a bike (very clumsy).

He turned out to be one of my best; he’s a big welterweight that has won in light heavy by KOs.

See,,, the guy he’s sparing can’t move his feet at all and that’s how most wing chun guys are. Don’t get me wrong, he can fight within his system. But,,, just like I’d said he’s an idiot and was talked out of his element of fighting just because he was much older and outweighed the kid, he thought it would be easy.

[JPinAZ]

Master of what? Aikdo, Judo, Archery, obviously not boxing or any contact art!

lol, I'd agree. Maybe he's a master heavy bag impersonator. Or maybe someone mistook him for a master because he has it written on his back in magic marker?

The kid might be 'ok', but IMO this clip doesn't really show anything because anyone would look good against this guy who can't apply pressure, can't punch and can't even defend.

[Ali. R]

lol, I'd agree. Maybe he's a master heavy bag impersonator. Or maybe someone mistook him for a master because he has it written on his back in magic marker? .

Master Alan: He’s the second one from the top.

The kid might be 'ok', but IMO this clip doesn't really show anything because anyone would look good against this guy who can't apply pressure, can't punch and can't even defend.

I knew he wouldn’t get a fair shot from you guys because I’d trained him, boy you don’t have a clue; he's 22 now. The kid: made him look bad that’s all. And if none of you guys can’t t see the skill in what he’s doing, then that’s a dam shame.

I told him to use a lot of movement off the jab (elementary) and keep him missing, because I knew it would fu*k with him psychologically and while keeping him off balanced at the same time, all skill.

you be the judge.

[Robinhood]

Master Alan: He’s the second one from the top.

="http://youtu.be/e3HdnOz4WMc"]you be the judge[/URL].

Those places are McDojos for kids, all hype no essence, good places for parents to drop off their kids.

[Ali. R]

They’d actually won a national fighting tournament, but the kid made it seemed that way really easily, that’s mostly my fought.

[jesper]

Most good boxing trainers are past ‘Champions’ themselves and even in some cases legends. A ‘Sifu’ is only as good as what he can past down from experience when it comes to combat.

If I’d wanted to learn how to box/fight and had to make a decision between a trainer who has the record of 32 - 3 for 8 – 5, or never fought at all; well,,,,,,,,,, YOU do the math, and I’ll just go with common sense.

So being a good fighter automaticly makes you a good teacher ?

And im not saying having a former world champ as your coach isnt a good thing. Im saying that nobody in boxing expects the trainer to be able to beat his student. If he could he would be the one standing in the ring making millions of dollars not his student. I dont care if its a former world champion at some point your just not good enough fighter anymore to beat the up and coming.
But somehow in TCMA you got to be the **** all your life. Your expected to just swat away all challengers and totally dominate everyone. Its inherently stupid, and also a trait of people who really doesnt do all that much fighting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most good boxing trainers are past ‘Champions’ themselves and even in some cases legends. A ‘Sifu’ is only as good as what he can past down from experience when it comes to combat.

If I’d wanted to learn how to box/fight and had to make a decision between a trainer who has the record of 32 - 3 for 8 – 5, or never fought at all; well,,,,,,,,,, YOU do the math, and I’ll just go with common sense.

That really isn't the case dude.
Dundee, Steward, D'Amato, Rooney, none of them were pro champions and while Steward had an amazing Amateur record, he had to give up pro fighting because of family.
Coaches must be fighters, yes, they must have had to fight yes, but champions?
No.
Roach would probably be the best choice for trainer and potential champ ( he never won but fought for the championship twice I think).
Rooney also had a great pro career.
Dundee never fought for example.
Neither did D'amato.
There's also Teddy Atlas.

[wingchunIan]

So being a good fighter automaticly makes you a good teacher ?

And im not saying having a former world champ as your coach isnt a good thing. Im saying that nobody in boxing expects the trainer to be able to beat his student. If he could he would be the one standing in the ring making millions of dollars not his student. I dont care if its a former world champion at some point your just not good enough fighter anymore to beat the up and coming.
But somehow in TCMA you got to be the **** all your life. Your expected to just swat away all challengers and totally dominate everyone. Its inherently stupid, and also a trait of people who really doesnt do all that much fighting.

totally agree. Cus D'amato, Teddy Atlas, Eddie Futch, Angelo Dundee, Emanuel Steward were all fantastic trainers and produced many of the notable fighters (in boxing terms) of the post war era yet they don't have a decent proffessional fight record between them. The notion that a good fighter makes a good trainer is inherently flawed, training is a skill in itself. Many successful fighters fight on instinct, they win without knowing why or how and can therefore never hope to teach the secret of their success. Those that do have a more formulaic approach that can be replicated don't necessarily have the communication skills or the patience to pass on their ability and fewer still have the underlying understanding that would allow them to modify what works so well for them in order for it to work well for individuals with different physical characteristics. There are of course trainers with fight experience that can use their personal experience to reinforce what they teach (I'm fortunate that my own sifu is a case in point), but that experience can equally be garnered from training partners, students, first hand observation and a whole raft of other ways.

[Ali. R]

That really isn't the case dude.
Dundee, Steward, D'Amato, Rooney, none of them were pro champions and while Steward had an amazing Amateur record, he had to give up pro fighting because of family. Coaches must be fighters, yes, they must have had to fight yes, but champions?
No.

I’m going to name a couple that I know and trained with personally and there’s many more as well, it’s a dam shame why these people are not recognized when they both have undefeated champions/fighters unlike the ones you’d mentioned; HUMMMMMM, I wonder why.

All of your dialogue is based off this sentence I’ve made:

Most good boxing trainers are past ‘Champions’ themselves and even in some cases legends. Did you notice the very first word I’d used (most); there are some very odd people here on this forum, as far as reasoning/common sense goes, unless something is driving them to act that way for no reason at all.


I only see two differences from the other names you’ve mentioned, genetic makeup and the fact that they were both champions.

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