"Crap" in Wing Chun?

[Ali. R]

What if I pull up a newspaper clipping that says the sky is orange or ketchup is really mustard? Go with what you see and know but not with what you read a 100% time, because it makes one come off like a ‘Fox News’ reporter (low information gatherers).

Remember you said that “there are no champion trainers”; and when I said most, I’m talking about the ones that I care about or grew up with. When you speak on it; it’s just words with no substance or newspaper clips, it’s all hype and nothing more than to sell tickets for investors that thought “Pac Man” is/was the second coming. And when I speak on it, it’s all from experience.

And you can take what I say with a grain of salt, but no one will say that; ‘Floyd Mayweather Jr. is not the best fighter out there and with the best skills to boot. In which he got from his father ‘Floyd Mayweather’ (another one I’ve just mention) and his uncle ‘Roger Mayweather’, both of them were great fighters and champions as well.

Please try not to quote me because our conversation isn’t going anywhere but in circles.

Or maybe this post can help you understand what I’m saying and with a prospective that I’ve haven’t thought of.

----------------------------------------------
Correct. Roach often led with his face in his own fighting days/ My neighbor and friend Louis Burke beat him twice. There is that awful video of Roach's head bobbing around taking hit after hit in one of his last fights- contributing to his disability. Probably a good person. But his training skills came from his apprenticeship with Eddie Futch who was a great trainer and a great amateur who developed a hurt murmur preventing progress in his own fighting career.

Roach's great achievement was in developing south paw Pacquiao's right hook. His teaching of defense is a little questionable given Amir Khan's problems and Pacquiao's total knockout by Marquez.

Take care,

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fist of all, I did NOT say there were NO champion trainers.
I said:

That really isn't the case dude.
Dundee, Steward, D'Amato, Rooney, none of them were pro champions and while Steward had an amazing Amateur record, he had to give up pro fighting because of family.
Coaches must be fighters, yes, they must have had to fight yes, but champions?
No.
Roach would probably be the best choice for trainer and potential champ ( he never won but fought for the championship twice I think).
Rooney also had a great pro career.
Dundee never fought for example.
Neither did D'amato.
There's also Teddy Atlas.

There are trainers that were champions, there are trainers that never were and there are trainers that never even fought in the pro ranks.
That is a fact, period.
Get off your high horse dude.
I trained at Sully's gyn in Toronto, I was a ranked Amateur and fought semi-pro.
None of that matters, just as YOUR experience doesn't matters to the FACT that some great boxing trainers NEVER were champions or even fought pro.

[Frost]

Fist of all, I did NOT say there were NO champion trainers.
I said:


There are trainers that were champions, there are trainers that never were and there are trainers that never even fought in the pro ranks.
That is a fact, period.
Get off your high horse dude.
I trained at Sully's gyn in Toronto, I was a ranked Amateur and fought semi-pro.
None of that matters, just as YOUR experience doesn't matters to the FACT that some great boxing trainers NEVER were champions or even fought pro.

do you remember the thread a while back about Ali running a golden gloves place and has a young kid who can beat grown men etc, his boxing credentials are shall we say suspect

As for the best boxing coaches being ex fighters thats is obviously not true, in combat sports its your record as a coach not as a fighter which is important...in traditional TCMA where you might not be producing fighters with a record potential students can check then the teachers fighting ability might be part of the equation

[Ali. R]

do you remember the thread a while back about Ali running a golden gloves place and has a young kid who can beat grown men etc, his boxing credentials are shall we say suspect

I find it very funny that those news clips are not in question and everyone else skills or background, but mines. Even when I’m the only one putting up clips proving what I do (politics). I was always told by my family the more you know over others could really hurt your standing with them, when you’re not of the same creed.

You can say whatever you want to say but I have nothing to prove, this subject in not about me. It’s about champion trainers in the business, now I have to prove my standing (politics) in order to make a post stand with merit. What’s next, my birth certificate?

[Ali. R]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood, but I did for this reason.

Coaches must be fighters, yes, they must have had to fight yes, but champions?
No.

Could you please show us all, where I said that they (trainers) must be champions? I’ll be waiting.

I’d find it odd that you would take my post out of content, and then get upset when I did yours out of confusion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood, but I did for this reason.



Could you please show us all, where I said that they (trainers) must be champions? I’ll be waiting.

You said:

Originally Posted by Ali. R View Post
Most good boxing trainers are past ‘Champions’ themselves and even in some cases legends. A ‘Sifu’ is only as good as what he can past down from experience when it comes to combat.

If I’d wanted to learn how to box/fight and had to make a decision between a trainer who has the record of 32 - 3 for 8 – 5, or never fought at all; well,,,,,,,,,, YOU do the math, and I’ll just go with common sense.

And that is what I said that you said, right here:

Yeah, you said MOST and that is just not correct.
Some great coaches were champs, some fought at the elite levels and some were journey men and some never fought in the pro ranks.
All that means is that to be a great coach you must KNOW the game.
HOW you know the game is NOT set in stone.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ali,
By what you posted and how you posted, you were stating that MOST champion trainers were champions themselves and I showed that to not be correct.
You stated that:

If I’d wanted to learn how to box/fight and had to make a decision between a trainer who has the record of 32 - 3 for 8 – 5, or never fought at all; well,,,,,,,,,, YOU do the math, and I’ll just go with common sense.

Implying that unless a trainer had a winning record or was a champion that it would be best to get trained by a trainer that WAS a past champion.
Yes, Two of the best ( Dundee and D'Amato) weren't even pro fighters.

My point is simply this:
A trainer MUST have experience fighting BUT whether or not he was a champion or even a fighter with a pro record is NOT as relevant as his ability to train good fighters.

[Ali. R]

It’s evident on the way you took my words out of content on how you really feel about me, because you never apologized for doing so like I did, which lead me to believe that you were serious about your statement, in which confused me in thinking that you meant that there are no champion trainers.

I’m only talking about this statement, could you please refer to this one only and then we’ll get to the next. Let’s play this game in order.

Coaches must be fighters, yes, they must have had to fight yes, but champions? No.

In which was posted after I made this post, I’m doing it all in order while you’re skipping subject points,

Most (who and what I know of) good boxing trainers are past ‘Champions’ themselves and even in some cases legends.

[Ali. R]

Implying that unless a trainer had a winning record or was a champion that it would be best to get trained by a trainer that WAS a past champion.
Yes, Two of the best ( Dundee and D'Amato) weren't even pro fighters.
.

I wasn’t implying anything, if anyone here had the choice with five different trainers all standing in one room, one would go with the most experienced one, that’s all I’m saying, and why not?

[JPinAZ]

do you remember the thread a while back about Ali running a golden gloves place and has a young kid who can beat grown men etc, his boxing credentials are shall we say suspect

I do remember him bragging about how great of a coach he was, how the philipino prodigy was going to be unbeatable, can take grown men, etc.
I also remember when he was prepping for his first fight and was going to totally wreck his opponent. But after the weekend said fight was to take place, whenever someone asked how the kid did, he never replied and ignored the question (and still does for that matter).

And now he has a new kid (who may have some base skills, like the last), but we only see clips of him sparring some sandbag of a 'master' that can't even move or throw a punch yet somehow it is supposed to validate what?

Not saying the kids are good/bad and I think it's great they have some direction and outlet. I just find it interesting how, for all of this guy's talk, bragging, and self-stroking, where are the results? How are these fighters doing and what happened to the first prodigy? No answers.

It would be totally different if he said less and his clips said more, but that's clearly never been the case

[sanjuro_ronin]

I wasn’t implying anything, if anyone here had the choice with five different trainers all standing in one room, one would go with the most experienced one, that’s all I’m saying, and why not?

You didn't say ANYTHING about experience, you stated:

If I’d wanted to learn how to box/fight and had to make a decision between a trainer who has the record of 32 - 3 for 8 – 5, or never fought at all; well,,,,,,,,,, YOU do the math, and I’ll just go with common sense.

That is a statement about fighting ability and fighting record, not experience.
BUT, lets go with what you said:

if anyone here had the choice with five different trainers all standing in one room, one would go with the most experienced one, that’s all I’m saying, and why not?

Experiences in WHAT?
If I had to choose between a trainer that never fought pro and trained the likes of Ali and Ray Leonard and one that used to be a world champ and had a great fight record, I'd choose the be trained by the trainer of champions, why?
Being a great fighter does NOT equal being a great trainer/coach.
So I would go with the person with the most experience TRAINING Champions.
That is the point.
Sure if you could get BOTH, go with BOTH, BUT if I have to pick one, it would be experience coaching champions over ever being a champion.

[Ali. R]

I do remember him bragging about how great of a coach he was, how the philipino prodigy was going to be unbeatable, can take grown men, etc.
I also remember when he was prepping for his first fight and was going to totally wreck his opponent. But after the weekend said fight was to take place, whenever someone asked how the kid did, he never replied and ignored the question (and still does for that matter).

And now he has a new kid (who may have some base skills, like the last), but we only see clips of him sparring some sandbag of a 'master' that can't even move or throw a punch yet somehow it is supposed to validate what?

Not saying the kids are good/bad and I think it's great they have some direction and outlet. I just find it interesting how, for all of this guy's talk, bragging, and self-stroking, where are the results? How are these fighters doing and what happened to the first prodigy? No answers.

It would be totally different if he said less and his clips said more, but that's clearly never been the case

I’ve never replied because you and others hated him for no reason at all, and he was just a kid then that done nothing to anyone, but were under attack just because he knew me which made his skills nonexistent. You guys didn’t show interest at all but only to hurt him. And for one who was that young didn’t need that kind of abuse, but encouragement. He is still fighting/training as we speak; like you really care.

People like you always asks for my credentials when clips of my skills level is evident, causing them to attack/question my character in the process, why?

While at the same time obviously praising less talented practitioners based off what you seen from a clip and with no background checks what so-ever, why?

It seems, if I can prove something one way, I would have to prove it another and another way as well, it will never stop as long as you feel the way you do about me. Why even go there with this nonsense, what are you trying to prove, and why?

[Ali. R]

You didn't say ANYTHING about experience.

I have nothing to say to you until we start here, are you afraid to stay in order?

It’s evident on the way you took my words out of content on how you really feel about me, because you never apologized for doing so like I did, which lead me to believe that you were serious about your statement, in which confused me in thinking that you meant that there are no champion trainers.

I’m only talking about this statement, could you please refer to this one only and then we’ll get to the next. Let’s play this game in order.

Coaches must be fighters, yes, they must have had to fight yes, but champions? No.

In which was posted after I made this post, I’m doing it all in order while you’re skipping subject points

Most (who and what I know of) good boxing trainers are past ‘Champions’ themselves and even in some cases legends.

I'd never said must be a champion. let's start there.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's not a game.
It was clear what you said and what you were implying, that somehow being a champion makes one a great trainer and that you would choose to learn from a guy that was a champion rather than one that wasn't.
I simply showed how that premiss is not as correct or "common sense" as you implied.
That's all.

[Ali. R]

It's not a game.
It was clear what you said and what you were implying, that somehow being a champion makes one a great trainer and that you would chose to learn from a guy that was a champion rather than one that wasn't.
I simply showed how that premiss is not as correct or "common sense" as you implied.
That's all.

Hummm, you are scared to stay in order but only choose to confuse things. For the record that is not what I’d meant, too bad you refuse to take that as reason.

Put only running from the beginning subject points that everyone can clearly see that it’s something you chose not to deal with only to save face. It truly shows what kind of person you really are.

I’m not for sure but maybe you are a good person, so why is it so hard to be honest?