The shape of combat

[-N-]

The day when I received my medicare card, the day that I realized the bottom of the montain is not too far away from me.

Haha.

Sometimes when a student finally gets some simple thing correct, I laugh at them and say, "oh, buddha came down from the mountain now?"

[JamesC]

Legs and core first, then the rest.




I was a brown belt in Kenpo before going to Mantis.

Kenpo had a lot of combination hand techniques that were very superficial in concept and integration compared to Mantis.

Also Kenpo had very rudimentary coordination between legs, waist, torso, and striking.

Footwork was slow, crude, and not very developed or finesseful.

A lot of isolated arm power instead of whole body power compared to Mantis.

That said, my teacher preferred to retrain a Kenpo person over another Karate person.

Legs and core? What do you mean?

Also, I was referring to the complaint from martial artists that kenpo practitioners don't fight how they train. Which I find quite hypocritical for a lot o traditional guys.

[-N-]

Legs and core? What do you mean?

You were saying start with punches and defense, then add legs and footwork.

I think that is part of Kenpo's problem.

They do a lot of involved handwork, like what some people call the "10 hit combos".

They don't have a platform to deliver from or good mobility, and they don't make good use of waist power.

So when I said legs and core first, I meant that this would help Kenpo be more effective.

[JamesC]

I include footwork in basic boxing. When I say legs I mean kicks.

I agree with you that there does seem to be this odd disconnect with most kenpo though. I think you're spot on with your analysis.

I came from a muay Thai and shorin ryu background so it hasn't been a problem for me. I've been really tryin to incorporate the MT footwork with newer people because, as you said, the delivery platform is one of the biggest faults. At least IMO

[JamesC]

As for the waist power, again, I agree with you.

Why do you think that is? It's almost like they're glossin over the basic components that make an effective style. This isn't the case in every school, of course, but it does seem to run rampant in kenpo especially. So you see these guys doing these techs, but they are all hands and arms with no power. Again, I benefit from past experience. Waist power is especially important in okinawan karate do.

Perhaps there is this tendency to shy away from traditional methods in an attempt to adopt more modern forms such as boxing without proper training?

[-N-]

As for the waist power, again, I agree with you.

Why do you think that is? It's almost like they're glossin over the basic components that make an effective style.

Somehow they evolved this focus on individual techiques/combos outside the complete fighting context.

People relied on innate speed and power that didn't derive from traditional body mechanics.

It kind of worked, but was a low level of skill. The details of proper body mechanics take a lot of work to really be able to use, understand, and teach.

It's kind of like an entropy that creeps into the propagation of the system.

The focus on techniques and variations is kind of a quantity over quality choice. Ran across some references talking about that aspect of Kenpo founders philosophy. Though they did not see it as quantity at the expense of quality.

But that is a common problem, especially in modern America. The "more is better" thing.

[-N-]

But that is a common problem, especially in modern America. The "more is better" thing.

Look at the whole set collector / forms junkie thing. People "know" all these forms. But do they really know and understand on a physical level where they actually can use them in a fighting context? And not just in a brute force way, but with real skill?

[Frost]

As for the waist power, again, I agree with you.

Why do you think that is? It's almost like they're glossin over the basic components that make an effective style. This isn't the case in every school, of course, but it does seem to run rampant in kenpo especially. So you see these guys doing these techs, but they are all hands and arms with no power. Again, I benefit from past experience. Waist power is especially important in okinawan karate do.

Perhaps there is this tendency to shy away from traditional methods in an attempt to adopt more modern forms such as boxing without proper training?

american kempo has no real history of fighting in full contact events, if all you do is soft slap sparring, forms and compliant drills you can get away with not generating power properly (see also wing chun for this problem) that’s the sad truth of it

this whole looking like your style or fighting like your style argument is a bit misguided in my eyes, your art gives you principles and guidelines that worked for the art founder, it also show you their favourite techniques and methods of power generation but then its up to you to make it work and fit with your own unique build and experiences,
Forms are a new invention before that people worked on basic techniques, strength and power generation methods, then they fought tested their theories and went back to the drawing board. Look at CLC of bakmei fame (considered the best fighter of his generation in southern china) by his 20’s he had trained with 3 different masters and then went to learn with his final teacher, he developed his own style based around what he had learned and what he had experienced, and he kept on making changes to his art his whole life (go look at mainland bak mei and compare it to hong kong bak mei, stances are different, they do different forms but the power generation and key techs are largely the same. When CLC beat a known master or teacher and that person became his student (and this happened a lot) he didn’t tell that guy to stop teaching he simply allowed them to incorporate bakmeimethods into his existing style of fighting if they wanted to.

WFH of hung gar had no trouble changing the art he did to fit the times and his experiences, in came longer wider sweeping strikes, longer stances, iron wire and so on, if the son of the arts keeper doesn’t see a problem with changing his art and making it fit him and his times rather than doggedly trying to look like his elders did, maybe we should be the same way

[Kellen Bassette]

WFH of hung gar had no trouble changing the art he did to fit the times and his experiences, in came longer wider sweeping strikes, longer stances, iron wire and so on, if the son of the arts keeper doesn’t see a problem with changing his art and making it fit him and his times rather than doggedly trying to look like his elders did, maybe we should be the same way

This is how KF developed for centuries. Think of a Ford. They don't look the same as 100 years ago. They were adapted, modified and evolved with new technology and the times. But the Fords today are still automobiles, the same as model Ts were.

People put their art in a showroom and preserve it as an antique. They need to get out and drive it. Nothing wrong with a few upgrades to be more efficient.

As usual, it's people claiming to be traditional, without any real understanding of tradition.

[David Jamieson]

Brawling or dueling?

The shape of a style is more apparent with dueling than it is with full out brawling.

[Frost]

This is how KF developed for centuries. Think of a Ford. They don't look the same as 100 years ago. They were adapted, modified and evolved with new technology and the times. But the Fords today are still automobiles, the same as model Ts were.

People put their art in a showroom and preserve it as an antique. They need to get out and drive it. Nothing wrong with a few upgrades to be more efficient.

As usual, it's people claiming to be traditional, without any real understanding of tradition.

And its normally either westerners or intellectual easterners who try to preserve, the Chinese who actually had to use this stuff dont normally care what it looks like or if they are mimicking their teacher, they were too busy trying to survive and win the next fight, they were they only cared about if it worked. Having said that if you aren’t using some techniques from your style and using its power generation methods and strategies, then maybe it is time to find a better style lol

[Frost]

Brawling or dueling?

The shape of a style is more apparent with dueling than it is with full out brawling.

we are on about fighting

[sanjuro_ronin]

Combat looks like how you train for it.
If you train full contact and are used to the stimuli of actual combat, you will maintain whatever "shape" you consistently train at.
If you do NOT train that way, your "shape" will be compromised and "fall apart" when under pressure.
It really is just that simple.

[David Jamieson]

Combat looks like how you train for it.
If you train full contact and are used to the stimuli of actual combat, you will maintain whatever "shape" you consistently train at.
If you do NOT train that way, your "shape" will be compromised and "fall apart" when under pressure.
It really is just that simple.

Most martial artists do not train at full contact unless they are readying for a fight.
Grappling schools have the luxury of less injury, not so for the striking arts.

Maintaining style is not as important as having effect through strength, condition and good structure of applications.

Every martial art deals with position of strength in a style and covers foundations.
there are very few gyms/clubs/kwoons/dojos that have full contact sparring regularly.

Besides, nobody full contact spars all the time except for grapplers.

If someone tells you they full contact kickbox and they aren't always sporting a bruise or a black eye, then it's likely they're taking the mick with you. lol

Having said that, competition type clubs will get you doing that on at least a 1 time a week basis. Boxing club, Kung Fu club that offers Sanda training, etc.

If someone wants to get serious, they will.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Most martial artists do not train at full contact unless they are readying for a fight.
Grappling schools have the luxury of less injury, not so for the striking arts.

Maintaining style is not as important as having effect through strength, condition and good structure of applications.

Every martial art deals with position of strength in a style and covers foundations.
there are very few gyms/clubs/kwoons/dojos that have full contact sparring regularly.

Besides, nobody full contact spars all the time except for grapplers.

If someone tells you they full contact kickbox and they aren't always sporting a bruise or a black eye, then it's likely they're taking the mick with you. lol

Having said that, competition type clubs will get you doing that on at least a 1 time a week basis. Boxing club, Kung Fu club that offers Sanda training, etc.

If someone wants to get serious, they will.

Indeed, don't argue with that.
My point is that the shape of combat is based on how ones trains full contact ( or at least hard contact).