The shape of combat

[David Jamieson]

Indeed, don't argue with that.
My point is that the shape of combat is based on how ones trains full contact ( or at least hard contact).

Your point is totally valid. Full contact has people revise what they thought was good positioning, good entering strategy etc. It's when the pressure of reality is revealed that we start to make our adjustments in style to that reality.

Fighting will change the shape of an "art" by recognizing the requirements of function vs the requirements of training strength and conditioning.

[MightyB]

the shape matches whatever's most efficient to you. Is this effected by how you train? Absolutely, but it all comes down to what works when you need it to work. It has very little to do with what you wished or hoped would work.

[EarthDragon]

as a judge for many years I see this transformation often. I see a person play a form you can tell right away where its from even what part of the region. then say they do push hands, then possibly fight, if there qualifying in all events.

I see the precision concentration in the form and proper body mechanics and weight shifts in the push hands, then I see it go out the window when it comes time to fight. this is a common problem

flip side, fighting only I have judged many MMA fights you cant tell what style they do which is OK but what you do should be recognizable and are least you should be able to say oh hes a BJJ guy or sambo, wrestler etc etc.

[YouKnowWho]

For me, everything starts with basic boxing.

You don't have to always start from the basic boxing. You try to skip that step if your opponent is a good striker. You can start from "grip fight". The "grip fight" is different from the "fist fight". You give up your striking opportunity by trying to disable your opponent's striking ability at the same time.

Combat looks like how you train for it. If you train full contact ...

This is why it makes no sense for a grappler to exchange punches with a boxer. The grappler just doesn't train that way.

Not sure what "full contact" may mean in the grappling game.

[jdhowland]

As for the waist power, again, I agree with you.

Why do you think that is? It's almost like they're glossin over the basic components that make an effective style. This isn't the case in every school, of course, but it does seem to run rampant in kenpo especially. So you see these guys doing these techs, but they are all hands and arms with no power. Again, I benefit from past experience. Waist power is especially important in okinawan karate do.

Perhaps there is this tendency to shy away from traditional methods in an attempt to adopt more modern forms such as boxing without proper training?

I suspect the disconnect happened because Hawaiian Kenpo was originally Okinawa Karatedo, although Mitose tried to cover its origins. Later Chow and others tried to give it a Chinese base without really learning TCMA. So it was something incompletely distorted into something else without regard to the power concepts needed to make it work. Fortunately, some branches have evolved since those days.

[-N-]

american kempo has no real history of fighting in full contact events, if all you do is soft slap sparring, forms and compliant drills you can get away with not generating power properly (see also wing chun for this problem) that’s the sad truth of it

There was a lot of point sparring in the 60's and 70's. Basically playing tag.

Kenpo was pretty good with groin kicks though. One of their favorite targets, and they always went there in sparring.

A few years ago, a karate school I knew visited their friend's Kenpo school for sparring exchange. All the karate guys got surprised taking kicks to the groin.

[Jimbo]

Many years ago, I was a Kenpo black belt, and when I was training it, I never liked the self-defense techniques or forms. But when we sparred, we never point-sparred or slap-sparred; it was always kickboxing, but with groin attacks, too. My teacher had a background in both wrestling and boxing, and was very good. I liked the sparring aspect the best. I always felt a disconnect between the techniques and the fighting.

When I started Kenpo at 13, I thought karate was just karate; I didn't know about styles and whatnot. To me, MA's meant judo and karate back then. I just chose the best school that was closest. It ended up being a very good school, even though I ended up leaving eventually to learn other things. I still respect and am in contact occasionally with my former kenpo teacher.

I had a book written by Mitose called Kenpo Jujitsu. Though I didn't really understand the jujitsu connection, if any.

[Yum Cha]

american kempo has no real history of fighting in full contact events, if all you do is soft slap sparring, forms and compliant drills you can get away with not generating power properly (see also wing chun for this problem) that’s the sad truth of it

I was under the belief that Parker and Dan Pai were Hawaiian street fighters before they put their styles together. Anybody?

[-N-]

Many years ago, I was a Kenpo black belt, and when I was training it, I never liked the self-defense techniques or forms. But when we sparred, we never point-sparred or slap-sparred; it was always kickboxing, but with groin attacks, too.

We had to connect with the groin kicks to make that distinctive pop sound from the other guy's cup. One guy passed out from the pain when he got kicked hard enough to split his groin cup.

Even our two person forms we had to contact the cup and get that sound. Kenpo seems to love hammerfist to the groin. Like every 3rd strike in a combo was a hammerfist to the groin. Didn't think it was all that great of a move though.

My first tournament as a kid... I was up against some kung fu guy who did a tornado kick at me. I cleared his first kick and threw my kick up before his second kick came around. He came down right on top of my rising kick and took it right between the legs.

[Frost]

I was under the belief that Parker and Dan Pai were Hawaiian street fighters before they put their styles together. Anybody?

it doesnt really matter what the arts founders were, if there's no history of fighting in the following gneerations things get lost quickly

[sanjuro_ronin]

it doesn't really matter what the arts founders were, if there's no history of fighting in the following generations things get lost quickly

This and it should be etched in stone in every dojo, dojang, kwoon and gym.

[SevenStar]

To me this is the shape of combat

I will actually second that. I recently began training in sumo. you hit hard, hit fast, strike, push and throw. most matches last less than 60 seconds.

[jdhowland]

Combat looks like how you train for it.
If you train full contact and are used to the stimuli of actual combat, you will maintain whatever "shape" you consistently train at.
If you do NOT train that way, your "shape" will be compromised and "fall apart" when under pressure.
It really is just that simple.

This is a good observation. In some longfist systems there are two kinds of training the shape of combat. One way is the testing training mentioned above. The other is the form training with more follow-through on the movements and more extension in the postures. The latter training aids balance and power development but it doesn't quite look the same in contact sparring. The techniques are still recognizable but the follow-through is felt rather than seen.

Which is the "shape" of the art? I say both: one is more abstract for developing power, range and balance, the other for practical use. The practical is the original intent while the abstract form is an adjunct to training.

[David Jamieson]

There was a lot of point sparring in the 60's and 70's. Basically playing tag.

Kenpo was pretty good with groin kicks though. One of their favorite targets, and they always went there in sparring.

A few years ago, a karate school I knew visited their friend's Kenpo school for sparring exchange. All the karate guys got surprised taking kicks to the groin.

I don't know what sort of queef huffing you've been doing , but back in the 70's I seem to remember guys beating the living tar out of each other without gloves or with light gloves or kempo gloves etc. Mouthguards and cups and full on blasting away.

Point sparring was tournament ghey BS that got big in the way late 70's, 80's and 90's when the big influx happened and everyone was doing it...but without insurance. At this time, tough man competitions came out which were the early versions of nhb in North America.

and so it evolved out that wu shu came into being, nhb started climbing in popularity and traditional started to diminish. By the 90's traditional was in real trouble and ufc was starting to get in the game.

Right now, it is the teens of the new millennium. UFC is now regarded as the realz and Traditional has schismed hard into those that do and those that dance.

Traditional schools are faced with bringing in real programs for people who want to fight. Schools lack credibility with the general public if they don't have fighters unless it's tai chi for old people or private esoteric kung fu study etc.

It will continue to evolve and i think that the sport fighting will continue to get more stylistic like boxing has done.

[Robinhood]

If you can't stay home and find yourself, no use looking for everybody else.