Explain "teh realz" taekwondo to me

[JamesC]

I'm aware that there are two organizations in TKD these days. The ITF and WTF.

What are the differences? Is one considered more traditional? Is one more legit?

There HAS to be SOME TKD out there that isn't considered a McDojo, right?

[sanjuro_ronin]

IN short the difference is politics.
The creator of TKD, Gen, Choi and his organization the ITF, stepped on the toes of the S.Korean government and went to N.Korea and taught TKD there.
He and his org got black balled and voila, the WTF was born.
They changed the forms and uniform and focused on sport competitions was we now know as Olympic TKD.
ITF kept the tradtional forms and run their own competitions that range from non-contact to full contact.
Technique wise:
ITF is a 60-40 blend of feet and hands and WTF is more of a 70-30 or even 80-20.
Lead leg kicks are a stable of ITF, as are punches and open hands.
WTF is more rear legged in their kicking.
Some old school WTF guys are very much ITF because that is what they were prior to "converting" to the WTF and their training looks it.
Conditoning is a key element in ITF and so is joint locks at the higher levels.
Same goes for SOME "old school" WTF.

[JamesC]

So the ITF is more closely related to Japanese karate then?

[Jimbo]

ITF TKD is definitely more karate-like than the current WTF style. General Choi had been a Shotokan black belt; I *think* he achieved only 1st degree(?). But ITF also does some things differently from Japanese karate.

There's a lot of politics involved. During the '60s and '70s, some Tang Soo Do teachers in Korea switched their loyalties to TKD, thus you also have Moo Duk Kwan TKD.

A famous old-school Korean MAist, Hwang Jang Lee, now teaches Tang Soo Do, though for many years he was known as TKD. My own suspicion is that he may not have wanted to change his old-school TKD to suit the Olympic-style WTF; thus changing to TSD, which is also much closer to karate (basically, both ITF TKD and TSD are indeed "Korean karate"). It's not such a jump to go from one to another. I studied TSD for a time, then switched to TKD, and the Korean teacher allowed me to keep my TSD rank and continue from there.

[Kellen Bassette]

Question. Is it basically established as fact that TKD is a direct adaptation of Japanese Karate? If so, did the penchant for high kicking come from some Japanese line, or did this evolve in Korea? Was there any meaningful influences from older Korean arts?

Where does Hapkido come into play? I constantly see this art advertised at TKD schools. Is there a connection to Hapkido in the development of TKD, or is it usually just taught alongside TKD because it is another Korean art? Or is Hapkido really another repackaged Japanese art?

Are their any native Korean MA being taught nowadays? Does North Korea teach TKD to its' military? Is it likely some older arts may have been preserved in the north, due to its' isolation...or has the public completely abandoned MA because eating is more important?

Sorry, just got thinking about all this stuff. Korean MA seem to be pretty vague on history. I suspect no one here knows with any certainty what goes on in the north...but opinion and speculation is welcome.

[JamesC]

I'd also be interested in seeing some videos of some notable masters of Korean arts. From guys that are more about the fighting and less about making money.

[Jimbo]

Question. Is it basically established as fact that TKD is a direct adaptation of Japanese Karate? If so, did the penchant for high kicking come from some Japanese line, or did this evolve in Korea? Was there any meaningful influences from older Korean arts?

Where does Hapkido come into play? I constantly see this art advertised at TKD schools. Is there a connection to Hapkido in the development of TKD, or is it usually just taught alongside TKD because it is another Korean art? Or is Hapkido really another repackaged Japanese art?

Hapkido is the Korean pronunciation of Aikido. The founder, Choi Yong-Sul, claimed he learned Daito-ryu Aiki-Jujitsu from Tokaku Sakeda, who was famously the teacher of Morihei Uyeshiba, founder of Aikido. Choi's claims are controversial among many Daito-ryu practitioners, but the fact is, he learned something, somewhere. Obviously, the strikes and kicking techniques were things he later added to it. As to why it's so often taught with TKD, I'd assume because its emphasis on joint locks/throws, etc. I've seen some schools promote TKD as a sport, while offering Hapkido as an art of self-defense alongside it.

I heard that the high kicking in Japanese karate (Shotokan) originated during the 1930s with Gigo Funakoshi, who started expanding the short movements of his father's art, with lower stances, higher kicks, etc. but prior to that, I don't think that high kicking was inherent in any traditional JMA. As for the greater variety of kicks in Korean MA, I'm not certain if many were simply developed post-WWII to differentiate from JMA due to wartime animosity.

[Kevin73]

Question. Is it basically established as fact that TKD is a direct adaptation of Japanese Karate? If so, did the penchant for high kicking come from some Japanese line, or did this evolve in Korea? Was there any meaningful influences from older Korean arts?

Where does Hapkido come into play? I constantly see this art advertised at TKD schools. Is there a connection to Hapkido in the development of TKD, or is it usually just taught alongside TKD because it is another Korean art? Or is Hapkido really another repackaged Japanese art?

Are their any native Korean MA being taught nowadays? Does North Korea teach TKD to its' military? Is it likely some older arts may have been preserved in the north, due to its' isolation...or has the public completely abandoned MA because eating is more important?

Sorry, just got thinking about all this stuff. Korean MA seem to be pretty vague on history. I suspect no one here knows with any certainty what goes on in the north...but opinion and speculation is welcome.

Long story short. Gen. Choi was a 2nd degree (along with many other "founders") in Japanese karate. When he went back over to Korea, they gave a demonstration to the president of Korea (or whatever title he had). The president said that the kicking reminded him of an old korean game using the legs/feet to kick a ball (kind of like hackey sack). The name was similar so Gen. Choi called his art "Tae Kwon Do" and started working on adding more kicks to have a cultural identity.

The Koreans suffered greatly at the hands of the Japanese and don't want to admit that their national art came from them, so ever since then there have been created histories of their own martial arts and claiming that TKD is one of those old ones. So both the WTF and ITF have been making changes trying to differentiate themselves from japanese karate. The WTF really focused on making itself a sport and the ITF created and implemented the "sine wave" theory to it's movement.

A good book on the history and politics of TKD is a book called "A Killing Art".

[SevenStar]

Question. Is it basically established as fact that TKD is a direct adaptation of Japanese Karate? If so, did the penchant for high kicking come from some Japanese line, or did this evolve in Korea? Was there any meaningful influences from older Korean arts?

Where does Hapkido come into play? I constantly see this art advertised at TKD schools. Is there a connection to Hapkido in the development of TKD, or is it usually just taught alongside TKD because it is another Korean art? Or is Hapkido really another repackaged Japanese art?

Are their any native Korean MA being taught nowadays? Does North Korea teach TKD to its' military? Is it likely some older arts may have been preserved in the north, due to its' isolation...or has the public completely abandoned MA because eating is more important?

Sorry, just got thinking about all this stuff. Korean MA seem to be pretty vague on history. I suspect no one here knows with any certainty what goes on in the north...but opinion and speculation is welcome.

I was always told that politics in tsd caused a split. this created tsd and tkd. as you probably know there has always been bad blood between Japan and Korea. (i have a Korean friend who says, "God made the Japanese; then he realized he could do better, so he created Koreans") some guys wanted the art to be less associated with Japan and to look less Japanese - during the split, these guys created tkd. less hand focus, higher kicks, more leg emphasis, giving it a more Korean swag. I guess after that initial split, the tkd group split again, forming wtf and itf.