Butterfly Swords

[David Jamieson]

Beyond staff, cane, cudgel and spade, I don't think any swords or battle axes et al ever were created by Shaolin itself and more likely adopted in, kept, refined, had shaolin methods and principles applied to etc.

It doesn't make sense that Buddhists would fashion swords and other implements of killing otherwise.

[jdhowland]

I don't know why "butt knives" became the standard term in English but they are known by different names in southern systems. They have been called wuh dihp dou, bau jaang dou (elbow knives), juk yihp dou (bamboo leaf blades) and even simply seung dou (double knives). I think some schools call them "hidden knives," as well. The names reflect either their use in pairs or their ability to be hidden up a sleeve while nestled against the forearms. These are primarily assault weapons designed for assasination, not self-defense.

Some are actually quite light and slender, some of the cleaver type and not all have the forward hook quillon or "D" guard. Hskwarrior posted some good photos a few years back showing some that were found in San Francisco.

No connection to Songshan that I've ever heard but certainly to some schools calling themselves Siu Lam. They seem to serve as symbols of resistance to oppression and probably reached their heyday around the time of the Taiping wars when it was well for anyone to be armed to fight even their own predatory militias.

[GeneChing]

Beyond staff, cane, cudgel and spade, I don't think any swords or battle axes et al ever were created by Shaolin itself and more likely adopted in, kept, refined, had shaolin methods and principles applied to etc.

I have some dispute with the monk spade, which I discussed in my last Shaolin Special cover story. But I would venture to say that the vajra, which evolved into what we Kung Fu practitioners call the monk cudgel, was a weapon of distinctly Buddhist origin. Monks are allowed to carry a short knife. The parameters of that blade are unclear, so part of the 'gai do' myth that I've heard is that it was designed like a loophole. It met the regulations set out for austerities, but was still quite lethal.

It doesn't make sense that Buddhists would fashion swords and other implements of killing otherwise.

That's an idealistic view of Buddhism. It doesn't make sense to go to war for religion, but it happens. Temples of old held treasures - golden idols and such - and needed protection. This is universal for monasteries of all ancient cultures.

No connection to Songshan that I've ever heard but certainly to some schools calling themselves Siu Lam. They seem to serve as symbols of resistance to oppression and probably reached their heyday around the time of the Taiping wars when it was well for anyone to be armed to fight even their own predatory militias.

Well, there's the rub, right? So many secret societies and rebel undergrounds adopted the Shaolin name that it muddles everything. Plus, if the myths of Shaolin are to be believed, warriors on the run took sanctuary within the temple (personally I'm not sure how often this really happened and believe it is more likely a reflection of the motif in Outlaws of the Marsh). It gets to that age old question - how long must you be a part of Shaolin to claim the name? For all the issues forum members have with SD (and I don't want this to become an SD debate - please restrain that to the ISDfR thread), Sin The has spent a lot of time at the temple if you tally up all his visits and he even set a stele there. Does that give him claim? Or is he like Emperor Wu facing Bodhidharma - of 'no merit'?

I don't know why "butt knives" became the standard term in English

I take full responsibility for that.

[hskwarrior]

http://chinesemartialstudies.com/201...-martial-arts/

[GeneChing]

Good to see the Judkins cite History and Design of Butterfly Swords By Jeffrey D. Modell (2010 March/April). Modell makes some amazing modern butt knives. He's one of the best makers in the states now.

That Shuang Jian pictured is exactly like a set that I have. Judkins should have done just a little more research on that, because the two-in-one scabbards exist in European swords too, typically referred to as swords 'in-case'.

Nevertheless, it's a really nice overview. He's got almost every vintage photo of butt knives that I've ever seen.

[hskwarrior]

These belong to my tong. very very old. probably over 100 years, our tong is currently over 165 years old.

[David Jamieson]

I have some dispute with the monk spade, which I discussed in my last Shaolin Special cover story. But I would venture to say that the vajra, which evolved into what we Kung Fu practitioners call the monk cudgel, was a weapon of distinctly Buddhist origin. Monks are allowed to carry a short knife. The parameters of that blade are unclear, so part of the 'gai do' myth that I've heard is that it was designed like a loophole. It met the regulations set out for austerities, but was still quite lethal.

I defer to you in regards to the spade. I know idealistic Buddhists practiced the philosophy of non violence and would make attempts to not even kill so much as a bug in practice. So, in that regard, you're right.

That's an idealistic view of Buddhism. It doesn't make sense to go to war for religion, but it happens. Temples of old held treasures - golden idols and such - and needed protection. This is universal for monasteries of all ancient cultures.

The monks were through time highly idealistic though. You would have to be to do what they did in separating their members into different cloisters and create more or less a division of warrior caste monks within context to the whole of the monastic practice.

With the entry of the concept of doing merit and attaining Nirvana for everyone, temples naturally became wealthy, wealthier than kings in some cases, from people accumulating merit by way of giving treasure to the temples.

Do you think it possible that there may have been a time that armed mercenaries were hired to guard said treasures and young men as monks being young men as monks took interest in their training and practice?

I'm sure that the leaders, abbots, monks understood the reality of their situation and maybe organically they were forced to adopt defensive martial arts as part of that reality.

Well, there's the rub, right? So many secret societies and rebel undergrounds adopted the Shaolin name that it muddles everything. Plus, if the myths of Shaolin are to be believed, warriors on the run took sanctuary within the temple (personally I'm not sure how often this really happened and believe it is more likely a reflection of the motif in Outlaws of the Marsh). It gets to that age old question - how long must you be a part of Shaolin to claim the name? For all the issues forum members have with SD (and I don't want this to become an SD debate - please restrain that to the ISDfR thread), Sin The has spent a lot of time at the temple if you tally up all his visits and he even set a stele there. Does that give him claim? Or is he like Emperor Wu facing Bodhidharma - of 'no merit'?

I take full responsibility for that.

He is what he is. He's not what others perceive him to be. That's a funny truth for all of us.

[David Jamieson]

...and yeah, thanks for the article and pics HSK. Cool stuff.

[GeneChing]

These belong to my tong. very very old. probably over 100 years, our tong is currently over 165 years old.

Nice pix. They'd be great for our featured weapon section someday. If you can get access for me, I'd make the trip up to SF to shoot and document them. Hit me up on PM if this is possible.

[hskwarrior]

Let me check with Raymond Chow first, i'll let you know.

[GeneChing]

PM me. We've been talking about meeting in SF someday and this might be just the excuse. If it doesn't work out, no harm, no foul.