Vin Tsun clips 3 "the return"

[k gledhill]

I delete threads that lose direction anerlich for lack of moderation...Like Frost posting grappling links
I forget sometimes after nearly 30 years doing this VT thing, oh yeah...Years ago I was in L.A. California while doing a USA tour with GM V Kan as his senior instructor and visiting A Fong in arizona, Chris Chan in S.Fran, Kenneth Cheung, and .....Hawkins Cheung..... I remember HC complimented me personally on my bong sao's, chi-sao at an after seminar dinner. This was after watching me and his student R Chu chi-sao....I later had R Chu...Alans teacher, asking me ( privately ) how I turned him in chi-sao , how my bong sao worked, etc...this was all private between me and R Chu during the break in a seminar. H Cheung gave me and a student of V Kan attending , a big explanation of VT alone one night in his school. Great, he was very excited and animated about it.

Oh and M Tyson and me

[LaRoux]

I delete threads that lose direction anerlich for lack of moderation...Like Frost posting grappling links
I forget sometimes after nearly 30 years doing this VT thing, oh yeah...Years ago I was in L.A. California while doing a USA tour with GM V Kan as his senior instructor and visiting A Fong in arizona, Chris Chan in S.Fran, Kenneth Cheung, and .....Hawkins Cheung..... I remember HC complimented me personally on my bong sao's, chi-sao at an after seminar dinner. This was after watching me and his student R Chu chi-sao....I later had R Chu...Alans teacher, asking me ( privately ) how I turned him in chi-sao , how my bong sao worked, etc...this was all private between me and R Chu during the break in a seminar. H Cheung gave me and a student of V Kan attending , a big explanation of VT alone one night in his school. Great, he was very excited and animated about it.

Chi sao, oh, OK.

Oh and M Tyson and me

You met Tyson and took a picture with him, oh, OK.

[k gledhill]

Chi sao, oh, OK.



You met Tyson and took a picture with him, oh, OK.

Yes & yes.

[LaRoux]

Yes & yes.

So far, what has been shown in the "Return of Vin Tsun 3" seems to suggest that the closest Vin Tsun gets to actual skill is doing chi sao and meeting fighters and taking pictures with them.

[GlennR]

Great, it's a trilogy longer than lord of the rings!!!!!

Well I can't open the link, so no I can't

Having said that, lighten up Kevin, it's just a forum

[GlennR]

Probably more like Star Wars. "Return of the Jedi" being the third installment of many more.

Waiting for Kev's version of "The Phantom Menace". Unless that's anyone who thinks the chi-sao warriors in his clips don't have the skill of Yoda.

Strange way to attack Alan, posting clips of his teacher's teacher and himself.

Does that make Kevin the ja ja binks of VT??

[wingchunIan]

Okay. I'm not starting a flame war. You are asking so I will just give an opinion and I hope it can be discussed without having go back on about right and wrong wing chun.

I just can't see more that semi demo drill chi sao. Maybe it's the style's trademark. But for me and it is just my view - I feel it lacks connection to the goal of wing chun. Which is dealing with a fight. It seems to much wing chun vs wing chun. Pure drilling. That's okay for beginners, but we never see anything beyond that.

In terms of angles etc it's all okay. But I don't see body structure body in the way I view it. The style doesn't use root in a way that I think it would need to in order to hold stance under tough pressure. I know people will say they will move and hit etc etc. But I am just being honest from the point of view of someone that trains fiighters for MMA, boxing K1. In lacks the natural timing of movement for me. It's good level of drilling of what they do. Chi Sao is just training as people will say. But fighting is not just training. So the training has to offer a skill which works in fighting. If a guy was not that good and throws a punch then yes a set drill can work. But I have seen so much nice drilling fall down as soon as the drill is not in play. A stronger fighter will smash though a weak drill as such.

So instead of attacking my crazy view or reminding me that I just use strength or that I don't know wing chun - lets try something new.

Questions -

What do you think this type of drilling demo style chi sao brings to a fight?

Do you think it will stop a guy using power and strength?

Chi Sao is just a drill? if so why does is it somethings showed with a better guy beating a not so good guy? Not saying that it the wrong thing. But it seems to go against the idea of a drilling skill if that's the case.

Would this sort of training stop a MMA fighter (levels basic guy, good guy, advance guy)?

Please explain the next stage in this style to take this to sparing - as I have seen sparring with head gear etc but that all became a long range in and out trade. Is the goal that? or is the goal to get in and stay in and use infighting skills? As I don't see that in the other clips of this style.

Again we all know we have different views, which is all fine.

I am just asking about stuff that is on my mind when I watch this different view.

Best post I've read on here in ages. I'm not making any judgements on whose POV is correct but the post is written in an open, engaging and polite manner. If all posts were like this the forum would be infinitely better.

[Graham H]

deleted.

I now worship Alan Orr

[anerlich]

I delete threads that lose direction anerlich for lack of moderation...Like Frost posting grappling links
I forget sometimes after nearly 30 years doing this VT thing, oh yeah...Years ago I was in L.A. California while doing a USA tour with GM V Kan as his senior instructor and visiting A Fong in arizona, Chris Chan in S.Fran, Kenneth Cheung, and .....Hawkins Cheung..... I remember HC complimented me personally on my bong sao's, chi-sao at an after seminar dinner. This was after watching me and his student R Chu chi-sao....I later had R Chu...Alans teacher, asking me ( privately ) how I turned him in chi-sao , how my bong sao worked, etc...this was all private between me and R Chu during the break in a seminar. H Cheung gave me and a student of V Kan attending , a big explanation of VT alone one night in his school. Great, he was very excited and animated about it.

Oh and M Tyson and me

So why still the chip on your shoulder Kev?

I've been around TCMA for about 35 years ... interspersed with about 15 in BJJ, and about 5 around MMA ... I don't need to post all these clips or drop all these names to feel secure. Must suck to be you.

[Frost]

So why still the chip on your shoulder Kev?

I've been around TCMA for about 35 years ... interspersed with about 15 in BJJ, and about 5 around MMA ... I don't need to post all these clips or drop all these names to feel secure. Must suck to be you.

Snap (well almost) 25 years in TMA, 10 in grappling and MMA, I don’t need to name drop either but I will just this once: one of the threads kevin deleted was about Anderson silva doing wing chun when I pointed out Silva was a Thai and BJJ guy and that’s where his skills come from and then posted clips of him with his coaches (one of whom I know personally) kevin had a hissy fit and deleted the thread…twice lol
He can dish the insults and knowing comments out but cant seem to take it

[Graham H]

Must suck to be you.

I think we have hit rock bottom

[GlennR]

I think we have hit rock bottom

Nah, we can go lower than this!

[Alan Orr]

I delete threads that lose direction anerlich for lack of moderation...Like Frost posting grappling links
I forget sometimes after nearly 30 years doing this VT thing, oh yeah...Years ago I was in L.A. California while doing a USA tour with GM V Kan as his senior instructor and visiting A Fong in arizona, Chris Chan in S.Fran, Kenneth Cheung, and .....Hawkins Cheung..... I remember HC complimented me personally on my bong sao's, chi-sao at an after seminar dinner. This was after watching me and his student R Chu chi-sao....I later had R Chu...Alans teacher, asking me ( privately ) how I turned him in chi-sao , how my bong sao worked, etc...this was all private between me and R Chu during the break in a seminar. H Cheung gave me and a student of V Kan attending , a big explanation of VT alone one night in his school. Great, he was very excited and animated about it.

Oh and M Tyson and me

What are you talking about? You ask for views on a clip. I tried to give my insight and requested you to explain yours as asked. So you come back with a back in the day story. Are you trying to say my teacher 20 years ago asked you a question so you must be better? Lol you must need support bro. My teacher is very open minded and will always ask others tons of questions. That's what you do when you meet other styles, then you go away and do what you want.

This is the big wing Chun problem - guys can't even train and talk without someone trying to live off it. Time to grow up and just get on with it.

You think the posted clip was good. Then great for you. I did not but asked for insights to why you did.

Posting random pictures or trying to direct it away is pointless

[Alan Orr]

How do you know how much power and strength is being used from a video??



Nobody is "fighting" in any of these chi sau videos so you have a valid point.




I can only speak for myself but stopping an MMA fighter is the last thing on my mind. Why bother yourself with such things? Your thinking suggests that ALL combat systems should prove their worth against MMA. It's a pointless discussion IMO.

One thing you are forgetting Alan is that a street fight doesn't go on for too long in most cases. The result usually depends on the power of the strikes and the amount landed. Just because you train MMA does not mean you can knock out all comers. It depends on many factors. Too many to list so why dwell on it.
Lets look at it from a hypothetical POV. An untrained guy happens to get in some bother with a guy who trains MMA. The untrained guy blind sides him, knocks him to the floor and kicks his head in. Who is the better fighter??? You couldn't even answer that question because the next time it may be different.

Until somebody punches you on the chin it makes no odds about styles!!! Some guys can just fight. No MMA required.

I wish you would stop putting everything about competition Wing Chun against competition MMA. There is no such thing.

Who would win out of Tyson and Ali??? Another stupid pointless question but rages on and on and on.

You could probably pick two guys from this forum and ask them to fight. One may win in the club/ring but lose out on the pavement. How do you know? You never will!



I'm yet to see any good VT sparring on YouTube. You have more chance of finding rocking horse sh8t!



You are right and the fact that most threads turn into garbage is boring now don't you think. Better to leave the keyboard and go face to face if anything is to be sorted out. Otherwise its just pixels on a screen.

It would help if anything you said makes sense in the first place.

Of course street fights are different they can be easier or if unlucky much much harder. I have seen fights last a lot longer when the guys can fight.

My point on Mma is not that you must do it and be able to beat Mma fighters to have good wing Chun. My point is how does the training in the clip bring you to the point where you could hold your own. As it didn't look like they could.

Power and strength - yes I have a good understanding if structure and power so I can see it and I know the style well so I can see it. Before you start you don't know my system.

Blind side someone ? Lol of course you may get Ko d . Point is what?

I'm not saying I am the toughest guy or can Ko everyone . Where did I sat that ? Again projection fears lol

I just like training. I like working out. I like developing myself in the real world with like minded people.

I have over time been lucky enough to have great teachers and students that push me to be better as we train in a way that encourages that

[Alan Orr]

You guys that train wing Chun and grappling know what I can asking when it comes to Mma. We know the street is different blah blah blah

But we know the truth is you need to be training to take the rough with smooth.

I just finish 3 hours training 1 hour chi Sao 1 hour wrestling and bjj then we did 1 hour Mma sparring using our wing Chun with boxing gloves and wrestling and bjj on the ground.

I was with my pro fighter josh he's 24 and 5-1 semi pro 2-0 pro and we had a great time. We both gave punched and took punched we both hit takedown and hit sweeps. We both got ground and pounded !

It's just normal training. No winners or losers, just learning via pressure and making our skills robust!

Same again tomorrow. It's no big deal