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Thread: Fast twitch..Weights...punch power.

  1. #16
    jimmy23 Guest
    True 8 step,but greater overall strength can really help a MA.There is much more to combat than who is the strongest,but strength IS a real factor.

  2. #17
    Braden Guest
    Speed: do plyometrics and avoid isometrics.

    Plyometrics done bad can destroy your body like WD said, but this is true of any exercise. Learn how to do them properly, and you should be fine.

    Despite the fact that good striking *is* a full-body motion, plyometrics will still have an immense effect on your ability, especially if you get some good upper and lower body exercises going.

    Straight weight-lifting won't do a whole lot for your speed.

    Just as an interesting note, the push-up/pounce plyometric exercise is one of the basic warmups of Fu Style Baguazhang.

  3. #18
    Brat Guest
    Actually I am totally against weight training in my own training. I used to box and I have a punch of 750 lbs per square inch without weight training. Thats because as mentioned earlier punching and kicking power comes from the waist not the arms or chest. I have always been able to hit much harder than guys with arms twice to three times my size. In my observations, weightlifting only adds weight to your arms wich can be a detriment to your fighting ability(I site the UFC fight-Maurice Smith vs. Mark Coleman.) If you really want to learn how to increase your strikes considerably within a short period of time then let me recommend "Championship Streetfighting-Boxing as a Martial Art" by Ned Beaumont. Using Beaumonts methods you should be able to triple your punching power within a few weeks.

  4. #19
    jimmy23 Guest
    I disagree brat,although im very interested in the book you mention,whos the publisher?Weights may or may not help punchiing power,depends on the individual,they can definately help on the ground.I refer you to Smith vs Randleman to show that a very strong fighter,even one with limited hand skills,can punch weel enough to discourage a skilled striker from closing the gap

  5. #20
    jimmy23 Guest
    NM brat found it on amazon,good customer reviews,i ordered it!Thx for the info!

  6. #21
    mantis108 Guest
    I am skeptical about ploymetrics. We have to ask the question if it is functional speed that we are building with ploymetrics. In track & field events, the answer is affirmative. In martial arts, however, I doubt its benefit. Correct me if I am wrong. Theoretically speaking, aren't ploymetrics supposed to boost your initation phase not the completion phase of an event? In martial arts, the completion phase is the convergent point of all that you have gotten. If you are strong on initation and lack on the completion than you are doing a push motion rather that a strike motion. That is obvious to me that this is not a desirable effect. So, I would agree with WD that ploymetrics aren't the best options out there for speed for MA. I think functional speed for MA is more about economy of motion. I have seen people generate power from the root up, yet there is a "S" sharp vibration in the body and so much of the power generated diseapated as a result of hurrying of a technique. I would focus more on the body mechanic than a fast initation. Just a thought.

    Mantis108

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  7. #22
    Braden Guest
    mantis - plyometrics are about explosive movement, plain and simple. Of course they're not going to teach your striking mechanics. That's what you have kungfu for! What they are going to do is exercise your body's physiology which gets involved in punching mechanics.

    Plyometrics are well documented both in western sports research AND in the lineage past down by our kungfu forefathers. But you don't need to rely on these secondary sources, you can use your head.

    If you want to train the physiology behind punching, what do you do? CV work? Basic weight-lifting? Isometrics? Form work? None of these things address what actually happens during a strike.

    Use your kungfu exercises to get the mechanics, your plyometrics to get the physiology, and a heavy bag to get used to doing it.

  8. #23
    mantis108 Guest
    Hi Braden,

    Thanks for the info. I might have misunderstood plyometrics. The explaination you gave is similar to a statement in an article of plyometic training by Jeffrey Rauth. In that case, in would make sense to train for the physiology with plyometrics. Initially, I thought that plyometrics are about building speed. My concern with them is that practitioner may build a reliance on speed plus that the program from that article seemed to suggest that warm up prior to plyometric training is not necessary which is another reason that I fear may cause unnescessary injuries. Frankly, I am for a balanced approach which will build but not break my body. BTW, plyometric training in BaguaZhang, that's interesting. Would you mind giving a few example? Always, good to learn something new. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] Thanks.

    Mantis108

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  9. #24
    Braden Guest
    mantis -

    I'm also strongly in favor of a balanced training approach which does not harm the body.

    Popular mythology tends to hold that exercising creates "bulky" "uncontrolled" improvements - whether in the area of strength, speed, endurance, or any other facet. I could be wrong, but this is what I'm getting from your post - that plyometrics will unbalance someone's capacity for speed, thus decreasing their ability to have economy of motion. This is, of course, far from the truth. Properly done exercises increase both capacity and control of the character being exercised. A die-hard weight-lifter doing his thing right should be more flexible than the average man, for example, not the muscle-bound stereotype that seems to occupy the public stereotypes.

    Of course, we can't really fault anyone for believing these stereotypes, because the exercise community (like any other community, I would suggest) has largely been irresponsible and just generally unhealthy in how it does things. In other words, most people in the community simply do things wrong. The grossest example of this is body-building competitions. The average spectator sees these body builders as the apex of human fitness. In actual fact, they are hideously ill. After a professional body building show most (all?) of the performers will spend a couple days puking and passing out because their bodies are so sick.

    Of course, just because most people do it wrong and some people do it ridiculously wrong doesn't mean it can't be done right. You just owe it to yourself to do the footwork to find out HOW to do it right if you're going to get into it. I would strongly recommend warm-ups before plyometrics, and also you should not attempt them until you've been doing a general conditioning program for a few months (and ideally until you've had someone show you how to do them right, or at least read a few books on the topic so you can teach yourself).

    As for plyometrics in baguazhang, I don't have my books here, as I've leant them all to a friend who's getting interested in the neijia - so I can't give you an exact reference. But the various schools of baguazhang tend to have what could be called "warm-up exercises." I haven't heard any particular, esoteric chinese term for them. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] Generally, these are just basic single movement exercises which are designed to prepare the body for baguazhang practice and also train the fundamental skills required - so they focus alot on whole body coordination and the like.

    The lineages stemming from Yin Fu's bagua, including Fu Zhensong's (which also has Cheng Ting-Hua influence) typically also contain "springy-leg" (tantui?) kicking exercises in their warm-ups.

    Anyway, one of these exercises in the bagua taught my Fu YongHui (Fu Zhensong's son) is essentially the basic upper body plyometric. They begin doing it against a wall, elbows bend out, palms against wall, body straight, heels raised. Pounce away from wall. Later, more distance is added in between the practitioner and the wall until they're ready to do it against the floor.

    Cheers.

  10. #25
    mantis108 Guest
    Hi Braden,

    Great that we see eye to eye on the topic. It is quite often that people, who are good at strength training, fight with lot of their "muscles" behind them and people, who are good at "explosive" speed, fight with jump the gun mentality. Right timing and techniques are thrown out of the door when they rely too much on their "physiology". Bull fighting and Cha Cha dancing are so common. Especially, when bull fight, Kung Fu becomes Kickboxing. Involved parties become so basic that it is but a match which involves trading punches and kicks only. Anyway, that's just how I feel about it.

    Are there good books on BaguaZhang which you would recommend? Preferrably with the plyometric type of exercises that you've decribed.

    About the exercise, to add distance meaning to get close to the wall or away from the wall? The push off - is it with the palms only or the arm? Are we supposed to stay on the ball of the feet at all times? Thanks for the info. I can't wait to try it out.

    Mantis108

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  11. #26
    Braden Guest
    There are a couple good books on bagua, but they tend to be more trade books than introductions.

    I can't think of any that are good for detailed description of exercises. I like the books mostly for the theory and for keeping my interest up when I'm not training. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] I've been told Park Bok-Nam and Dan Miller's two books are good for this, but I haven't read them myself.

    The distance from the wall increases, and the pounce should be more holistically upper body like a push-up, not just with the hands. I'm pretty sure you're supposed to stay on the balls of your feet the whole time. Any book on plyometrics should detail the same exercise much better than I could here. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

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