Hendrik question

[k gledhill]

SLT without Chum Kil is not functional, so why do attribute so much "engine" to SLT ? It needs dynamics of movement. The addition of dealing with dynamic force , momentum in a fight is a skill we focus on and take advantage of with centerline fighting.

[GlennR]

SLT without Chum Kil is not functional, so why do attribute so much "engine" to SLT ? Its need dynamics of movement. The addition f dealing with dynamic force , momentum in a fight is a skill we focus on and take advantage of with centerline fighting.

All that doesn't work if you donr get slt, and the engine, right

For once I'd go with Hendrick

[wingchunIan]

Personally I'd say SNT and CK are as important as each other. CK doesn't work without SNT and SNT is useless without the mobility of CK. SNT facilitates being able to engage with CK.

[LoneTiger108]

SLT without Chum Kil is not functional, so why do attribute so much "engine" to SLT ? Its need dynamics of movement. The addition f dealing with dynamic force , momentum in a fight is a skill we focus on and take advantage of with centerline fighting.

Y'know I aint posted here in a while now and THIS post is a true gem

It actually proves your ignorance to any Wing Chun teaching that existed prior to Ip Man, but in fact I think you PBWSL dudes discount anything anybody taught before our dear Philip Bayer?! I often wonder if he knows or will even remember you seminar guys?

Anyway, enough about that. Why don't you look at some of the history about Wing Chun Kev and try and grasp the fact that the 3 forms we see today never existed like that in the earlier practices. The ideas of Chum Kiu and Biu Jee were already embedded in the original set, hence why it is named Siu Lien Tau and not Siu Nim tau. It simply is not the same set.

This is only ONE of quite a few versions but I think it gives an idea of what I'm trying to say http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRbpfs31N20

Now this isn't to say that I understand what the hell Hendrik yaps about half the time, but I do see and am trying to get to know more about the mainland and operatic families that still exist today. In fact I have known some practitioners since 1999 and all their forms are different to what Ip Man taught BUT they contain the same, if not identical principles.

Maybe you should get off the couch and get out more...

[Eric_H]

Anyway, enough about that. Why don't you look at some of the history about Wing Chun Kev and try and grasp the fact that the 3 forms we see today never existed like that in the earlier practices. The ideas of Chum Kiu and Biu Jee were already embedded in the original set, hence why it is named Siu Lien Tau and not Siu Nim tau. It simply is not the same set.

This is factually incorrect.

The 3 forms existed as far back as Wong Wa Bo/Leung Yi Tai. In my own lineage we have them as far back as Hung Gun Biu, if not further.

Siu Lein Tao means little drilling in the beginning - it's the concept of drilling mechanics around an idea. In the case of Yik Kam's wing chun, it seems he felt that the snake engine was a big deal (assuming Hendrik represents that teaching correctly... which is a big assumption) so he built a drilling set around it.

Siu Nim Tao means the little idea in the beginning - is the ability to focus on the concepts of wing chun and how to manifest them in structure. It's not a drilling set of the hands, it's a drilling set for the mind.

[Hendrik]

This is factually incorrect.

The 3 forms existed as far back as Wong Wa Bo/Leung Yi Tai. In my own lineage we have them as far back as Hung Gun Biu, if not further.

Siu Lein Tao means little drilling in the beginning - it's the concept of drilling mechanics around an idea. In the case of Yik Kam's wing chun, it seems he felt that the snake engine was a big deal (assuming Hendrik represents that teaching correctly... which is a big assumption) so he built a drilling set around it.

Siu Nim Tao means the little idea in the beginning - is the ability to focus on the concepts of wing chun and how to manifest them in structure. It's not a drilling set of the hands, it's a drilling set for the mind.

1. Snake body is a common denominator of the red boat era WCK lineages. As one can see it exist in the snake crane WCK lineage, the yik kam lineage, the Ipman lineage as Hawkin recently present it to the public.

2. Both The siu Lin tau long set of yik kam and the siu nim tau, ck, and biu jee set develop the snake engine or snake body. Snake body or snake engine is the Kung part of WCK.

3. Both the long siu Lin tau set of yik kam and the three sets has five layers, the physical, mind, breathing , qi , and. Momentum, force change, center line capture layers.

4. We know today what is the very very likely reason of is spliting a long set type system to the three sets type system in 1850. And can pin point to two persons who were responsible to this WCK evolution and why.

5. The siu nim Tao of the three sets was kept in the evolution of reorganization to three sets system to cultivate the Kung. Namely, the snake body is one of the target of development. So, siu Lin Tau is the process of transform into the snake body crane limbs. Only after that, ck, bj for further development. And finally return to only siu Lin tau because all three sets merge into one when the movement become smaller and smaller.

6. The long set was evolve away due to the complex of the internal content and application . The three sets is a much better system to learn for application in short time, however with a trade off of risking totally losing the Kung and internal engine part. Evolve into only application without engine.

This theard is the evidence of many has losing the Kung or body of the art or engine. Thus, they think as they think.

7. I design the drill as the intermidiate step to aid one get transform while practicing the sets.

8. No one has to agree with me, the above is my reasons of why I do what.

[Eric_H]

1. Snake body is a common denominator of the red boat era WCK lineages. As one can see it exist in the snake crane WCK lineage, the yik kam lineage, the Ipman lineage as Hawkin recently present it to the public.

2. Both The siu Lin tau long set of yik kam and the siu nim tau, ck, and biu jee set develop the snake engine or snake body. Snake body or snake engine is the Kung part of WCK.

3. Both the long siu Lin tau set of yik kam and the three sets has five layers, the physical, mind, breathing , qi , and. Momentum, force change, center line capture layers.

4. We know today what is the very very likely reason of is spliting a long set type system to the three sets type system in 1850. And can pin point to two persons who were responsible to this WCK evolution and why.

5. The siu nim Tao of the three sets was kept in the evolution of reorganization to three sets system to cultivate the Kung. Namely, the snake body is one of the target of development. So, siu Lin Tau is the process of transform into the snake body crane limbs. Only after that, ck, bj for further development. And finally return to only siu Lin tau because all three sets merge into one when the movement become smaller and smaller.

6. The long set was evolve away due to the complex of the internal content and application . The three sets is a much better system to learn for application in short time, however with a trade off of risking totally losing the Kung and internal engine part. Evolve into only application without engine.

This theard is the evidence of many has losing the Kung or body of the art or engine. Thus, they think as they think.

7. I design the drill as the intermidiate step to aid one get transform while practicing the sets.

8. No one has to agree with me, the above is my reasons of why I do what.

This is about as wrong as it gets. Snake body never has, and never will, have anything to do with real WC.

Enjoy your WC mutation.

[Hendrik]

This is about as wrong as it gets. Snake body never has, and never will, have anything to do with real WC.

Enjoy your WC mutation.

if your WCK is not from Red boat era WCK lineages, then you are right. your WCK is not the Red boat WCK.

We dont know what is real WCK, but we have a track record of WCK from 1850 to today interm of lineages and art. those are facts and more and more evidence will surface in the future.

[LoneTiger108]

The 3 forms existed as far back as Wong Wa Bo/Leung Yi Tai. In my own lineage we have them as far back as Hung Gun Biu, if not further.

This is what I was suggesting, I gave no indication as to where, when or who divided the single set into three. I know others have done much research into this but I don't really see that as important either, no matter how far you think they go back as a divided set. The fact is there are lineages around to this day that still teach a single set, and variations of a single set, rather than have a distinct 3 forms called SNT, CK and BJ.

I do also agree with Hendrik that there is much to the traditional arts that is missing from our more modern Wing Chun system today. This includes flag waving and turning rings of fire

Somethings however DO stay the same, and that is our system still seems to have a 'Bragger' or two...

[Hendrik]

This is what I was suggesting, I gave no indication as to where, when or who divided the single set into three. I know others have done much research into this but I don't really see that as important either, no matter how far you think they go back as a divided set. The fact is there are lineages around to this day that still teach a single set, and variations of a single set, rather than have a distinct 3 forms called SNT, CK and BJ.

I do also agree with Hendrik that there is much to the traditional arts that is missing from our more modern Wing Chun system today. This includes flag waving and turning rings of fire

Somethings however DO stay the same, and that is our system still seems to have a 'Bragger' or two...

One set or three sets, the general core is there. The one set get into the internal engine training deeper, while the three sets teaching the application in a more systematic clear way.

I think future wcners can learn both. To give them a wider view.

[Hendrik]

SLT without Chum Kil is not functional, so why do attribute so much "engine" to SLT ? Its need dynamics of movement. The addition f dealing with dynamic force , momentum in a fight is a skill we focus on and take advantage of with centerline fighting.

Your question is a classical for westerner who is not familiar with traditional Chinese martial art system.


In tradition Chinese art, theRe has to be a Kung or body of the art and the fatt or application of the art. The body of the art support the application, the application express the power of the body of the art.

The body of the art include many things including the power generation development, structure. Joints handling...ect. In a specific way to support the applications.


Siu nim tau or siu Lin tau set of the three sets is the training to develop the body of the art. In WCK that body of the art is said to be the snake body. Why? It has a characteristics of coil spring be able to shoot or accept the impact from the center line. The two kuen kuits share here from the red boat era is the description and instruction of the siu Lin tau.

Siu nim tau is focus on "direct " coil spring momentum
Chum kil needs that siu Lin tau of basic to extended to a "roundabout " coil spring momentum
Biu jee extended further to " recover" coil spring momentum.

One needs to develop the "direct " coil sprint before can further extend to roundabout , then only after roundabout , to recovery. Instead jump step and missing the foundation. That is the design of the WCK when the one long set is split into three sets 1850 era, as we know today .


Now, IMHO, WCK has an issue if the siu nim tau body of the art is not develop. As Hawkin asking "do you have the snake body?" in his YouTube. However, today,most don't develop this body of the art but thinking a default muscle strength to push is what it needs. Or rooting like hung gar or moving like taiji with round hip...etc which is not the development of the siu Lin Tau design for.

[Vajramusti]

Your question is a classical for westerner who is not familiar with traditional Chinese martial art system.


In tradition Chinese art, theRe has to be a Kung or body of the art and the fatt or application of the art. The body of the art support the application, the application express the power of the body of the art.

The body of the art include many things including the power generation development, structure. Joints handling...ect. In a specific way to support the applications.


Siu nim tau or siu Lin tau set of the three sets is the training to develop the body of the art. In WCK that body of the art is said to be the snake body. Why? It has a characteristics of coil spring be able to shoot or accept the impact from the center line. The two kuen kuits share here from the red boat era is the description and instruction of the siu Lin tau.

Siu nim tau is focus on "direct " coil spring momentum
Chum kil needs that siu Lin tau of basic to extended to a "roundabout " coil spring momentum
Biu jee extended further to " recover" coil spring momentum.

One needs to develop the "direct " coil sprint before can further extend to roundabout , then only after roundabout , to recovery. Instead jump step and missing the foundation. That is the design of the WCK when the one long set is split into three sets 1850 era, as we know today .


Now, IMHO, WCK has an issue if the siu nim tau body of the art is not develop. As Hawkin asking "do you have the snake body?" in his YouTube. However, today,most don't develop this body of the art but thinking a default muscle strength to push is what it needs. Or rooting like hung gar or moving like taiji with round hip...etc which is not the development of the siu Lin Tau design for.

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Hendrik- with the above post your writing and explanation is getting better.

[Hendrik]

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Hendrik- with the above post your writing and explanation is getting better.

Thanks! I try!

[Hendrik]

The most fundamental basic od the siu nim tau snake body is a training of the handling of ones seven major joints of the physical body. How these seven joints used as an integration, separation, joint by joint in sequence, joints synchronization, within the philosophy of using center guarding center philosophy of the wing Chun kuen.

[cobra]

What do you mean by moving like Tai Ji with round hip?