Hendrik question

[Hendrik]

Okaaaay lets move on, Ving tsun is dependant on angling and movement to work.

Like the wepons we use we too need to changes positions and counter attack, etc... a basic pole set is static to learn the alignment of the pole before we start to move and angle to attacks and counter, etc....you cant stand still in a basic stance and expect to create dynamic force using momentum of the body in motion.

Or learn to recover errors of the same or take advantage of others errors unless...you move around, like fighters do outside their living rooms.

By evidence of your post,
You don't understand the body of the art, but keeping address application of the art.

That is just 1/2 of WCK.

[Robinhood]

Okaaaay lets move on, Ving tsun is dependent on angling and movement to work. Like the weapons we use, we too need to change positions and counter attack, etc... a basic pole set is static to learn the alignment of the pole before we start to move and angle to attacks and counter, etc....you cant stand still in a basic stance and expect to create dynamic force using momentum of the body in motion.Or learn to recover errors of the same or take advantage of others errors unless...you move around, like fighters do outside their living rooms.

Well your half right, wc is angles and moving a around a little , but that is the beginning stage, there is more beyond that, a lot more.

I think the reason you haven't experienced it, is usually people that know it don't care if you don't have it and don't have ego problem to show you up, so they just shine you on and tell your stuff is good, because they don't like you and are not interested in showing someone with big ego or for whatever reason they have, I see it happen all the time.

That's what happens when you visit other people who are not really close friends.

[Hendrik]

Well your half right, wc is angles and moving a around a little , but that is the beginning stage, there is more beyond that, a lot more.

I think the reason you haven't experienced it, is usually people that know it don't care if you don't have it and don't have ego problem to show you up, so they just shine you on and tell your stuff is good, because they don't like you and are not interested in showing someone with big ego or for whatever reason they have, I see it happen all the time.

That's what happens when you visit other people who are not really close friends.

As I post above, there are three major core in WCK, namely, direct momentum handling, roundabout momentum handling, and recovery momentum handling.

In each of the momentum handling , it consists of the engine which driven it and the technics which manual it.

And each of these core build up from the other, the recovery on top of the roundabout, the roundabout on top of the direct, the direct is the most basic. That is the siu Lin Tau teaching.


However, when one cant even read post properly and keep close within ones own turned vision. One can not see what it is, what others is adressing.

Some keep posting how good they can fight....ect. But if they can't even cool thier head and read , they can not even know what is going on.

[Eric_H]

Anyway, enough about that. Why don't you look at some of the history about Wing Chun Kev and try and grasp the fact that the 3 forms we see today never existed like that in the earlier practices. The ideas of Chum Kiu and Biu Jee were already embedded in the original set, hence why it is named Siu Lien Tau and not Siu Nim tau. It simply is not the same set.

This is factually incorrect.

The 3 forms existed as far back as Wong Wa Bo/Leung Yi Tai. In my own lineage we have them as far back as Hung Gun Biu, if not further.

Siu Lein Tao means little drilling in the beginning - it's the concept of drilling mechanics around an idea. In the case of Yik Kam's wing chun, it seems he felt that the snake engine was a big deal (assuming Hendrik represents that teaching correctly... which is a big assumption) so he built a drilling set around it.

Siu Nim Tao means the little idea in the beginning - is the ability to focus on the concepts of wing chun and how to manifest them in structure. It's not a drilling set of the hands, it's a drilling set for the mind.

[Hendrik]

This is factually incorrect.

The 3 forms existed as far back as Wong Wa Bo/Leung Yi Tai. In my own lineage we have them as far back as Hung Gun Biu, if not further.

Siu Lein Tao means little drilling in the beginning - it's the concept of drilling mechanics around an idea. In the case of Yik Kam's wing chun, it seems he felt that the snake engine was a big deal (assuming Hendrik represents that teaching correctly... which is a big assumption) so he built a drilling set around it.

Siu Nim Tao means the little idea in the beginning - is the ability to focus on the concepts of wing chun and how to manifest them in structure. It's not a drilling set of the hands, it's a drilling set for the mind.

1. Snake body is a common denominator of the red boat era WCK lineages. As one can see it exist in the snake crane WCK lineage, the yik kam lineage, the Ipman lineage as Hawkin recently present it to the public.

2. Both The siu Lin tau long set of yik kam and the siu nim tau, ck, and biu jee set develop the snake engine or snake body. Snake body or snake engine is the Kung part of WCK.

3. Both the long siu Lin tau set of yik kam and the three sets has five layers, the physical, mind, breathing , qi , and. Momentum, force change, center line capture layers.

4. We know today what is the very very likely reason of is spliting a long set type system to the three sets type system in 1850. And can pin point to two persons who were responsible to this WCK evolution and why.

5. The siu nim Tao of the three sets was kept in the evolution of reorganization to three sets system to cultivate the Kung. Namely, the snake body is one of the target of development. So, siu Lin Tau is the process of transform into the snake body crane limbs. Only after that, ck, bj for further development. And finally return to only siu Lin tau because all three sets merge into one when the movement become smaller and smaller.

6. The long set was evolve away due to the complex of the internal content and application . The three sets is a much better system to learn for application in short time, however with a trade off of risking totally losing the Kung and internal engine part. Evolve into only application without engine.

This theard is the evidence of many has losing the Kung or body of the art or engine. Thus, they think as they think.

7. I design the drill as the intermidiate step to aid one get transform while practicing the sets.

8. No one has to agree with me, the above is my reasons of why I do what.

[LoneTiger108]

The 3 forms existed as far back as Wong Wa Bo/Leung Yi Tai. In my own lineage we have them as far back as Hung Gun Biu, if not further.

This is what I was suggesting, I gave no indication as to where, when or who divided the single set into three. I know others have done much research into this but I don't really see that as important either, no matter how far you think they go back as a divided set. The fact is there are lineages around to this day that still teach a single set, and variations of a single set, rather than have a distinct 3 forms called SNT, CK and BJ.

I do also agree with Hendrik that there is much to the traditional arts that is missing from our more modern Wing Chun system today. This includes flag waving and turning rings of fire

Somethings however DO stay the same, and that is our system still seems to have a 'Bragger' or two...

[Hendrik]

This is what I was suggesting, I gave no indication as to where, when or who divided the single set into three. I know others have done much research into this but I don't really see that as important either, no matter how far you think they go back as a divided set. The fact is there are lineages around to this day that still teach a single set, and variations of a single set, rather than have a distinct 3 forms called SNT, CK and BJ.

I do also agree with Hendrik that there is much to the traditional arts that is missing from our more modern Wing Chun system today. This includes flag waving and turning rings of fire

Somethings however DO stay the same, and that is our system still seems to have a 'Bragger' or two...

One set or three sets, the general core is there. The one set get into the internal engine training deeper, while the three sets teaching the application in a more systematic clear way.

I think future wcners can learn both. To give them a wider view.

[Robinhood]

So you think angling and moving is the beginning stage, and SLT is after ??

SLT is always there, it is just training aid. Body level movement of angling and moving is beginning stage of learning, how to get past that is the mystery.

[anerlich]

I have to wonder what axe Hendrik has to grind with taiji. Like maybe an IMA guy beat him up, or something.

[imperialtaichi]

To think that Wing Chun has only ONE way of generating power, and the method is unique is laughable. Unless all WCers are deformed we will share common biomechanics, physiology and psychology. And methods.

True, each martial art has its own ways to cultivate power, and places different emphasis on different strategies; but in the end we all have four limbs and a head. There are only very limited ways to be biologically effective and efficient.

With an open mind, the more you look into Arts such as Tai Chi, Bagua, Xingyi, Baji, Hung Jia, Tanglang, White Crane, Shaolin etc. etc. etc., the more you see the similarities, not the differences. The boundaries between the Arts become grey.

To suggest "only my method is right, and anyone doing it differently is not Wing Chun" is a sign of ignorance and bigotry.

[Ozzy Dave]

True, each martial art has its own ways to cultivate power, and places different emphasis on different strategies; but in the end we all have four limbs and a head. There are only very limited ways to be biologically effective and efficient.

Absolutely agree, gung (attribute) training for a given martial art or even an intepretation within a martial art family will only support the strategies favoured, nothing more nothing less.

That there will be some cross over between martial arts is a forgone conclusion.

Dave

[Paul T England]

Great statment.

"With an open mind, the more you look into Arts such as Tai Chi, Bagua, Xingyi, Baji, Hung Jia, Tanglang, White Crane, Shaolin etc. etc. etc., the more you see the similarities, not the differences. The boundaries between the Arts become grey."

Many people in wing chun have closed minds when whing chun is a art of rebellion. I would bet money on lots of transfers of experience between taiji and wing chun in foshan and canton around the 1900s.

Siu Nim Tao is the seed so you can't understand chum kiu without it. The forms and system is not fixed, its not like one day you don't understand and the next you do, its a process and hopefully our understanding keeps developing otherwise why practice?

Also if you look at chum kiu you should find multiple ways of generating power.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Hendrik]

Absolutely agree, gung (attribute) training for a given martial art or even an intepretation within a martial art family will only support the strategies favoured, nothing more nothing less.

That there will be some cross over between martial arts is a forgone conclusion.

Dave

The above is a very general view. Which get people into seem understand but confuse state. As in pseudo zen talking of everything is zen but none understand the zen teaching.

However, if one Really develop an art , one will know yang taiji is not Chen taiji is not wu taiji, they are different and not the same, baji and Xing yi is not the same, ...etc

Siu Lin tau practice of WCK is very specific . It doesnt do those taiji rotate hip...ect, it doesnt do the forward stance. Siu lin tau capture the centerline at every move, taiji set don't do that way, baji, xingyi don't do that way, yi chuan doesn't do that way.

[Hendrik]

To think that Wing Chun has only ONE way of generating power, and the method is unique is laughable. Unless all WCers are deformed we will share common biomechanics, physiology and psychology. And methods.

True, each martial art has its own ways to cultivate power, and places different emphasis on different strategies; but in the end we all have four limbs and a head. There are only very limited ways to be biologically effective and efficient.

With an open mind, the more you look into Arts such as Tai Chi, Bagua, Xingyi, Baji, Hung Jia, Tanglang, White Crane, Shaolin etc. etc. etc., the more you see the similarities, not the differences. The boundaries between the Arts become grey.

To suggest "only my method is right, and anyone doing it differently is not Wing Chun" is a sign of ignorance and bigotry.

Since you claim to be a wcner, Are you open minded enough to practice siu Lin tau set and let the set speak for itself?

If not, what are you practice? Wing Chum or something else?

As for tai chi, bagua, Xing yi......ect those are different art, the following clip shows the different of Xing yi and WCK by evidence. Start 6.3


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fqwNGUq60I

So one needs to practice wing chun, know what wing Chun Is, before get into arts become grey theory. In fact when one says art become grey just mean one has never really know the art.

In the above clip, Xing yi doesn't do capture center line as wing Chun, the momentum handling of WCK is a totally different deal with Xing yi. Seeing is believe. One video worth a gigabytes. There is no gray, the wcner in the Clip only goal and score many times is capture the center line. Xing yi don't do that. One practice the siu Lin tau, ck, bj, woodern dummy, chisau for that capture of the center line. Not taiji, not Xing yi, not baji, not shao Lin, not bagua, not yee chuan. WCK theme is WCK theme. Center line capture, inner gate capture, straight to center line. Also WCK type of uniqueness certainly not taiji type of rotating hip .

[Eric_H]

1. Snake body is a common denominator of the red boat era WCK lineages. As one can see it exist in the snake crane WCK lineage, the yik kam lineage, the Ipman lineage as Hawkin recently present it to the public.

2. Both The siu Lin tau long set of yik kam and the siu nim tau, ck, and biu jee set develop the snake engine or snake body. Snake body or snake engine is the Kung part of WCK.

3. Both the long siu Lin tau set of yik kam and the three sets has five layers, the physical, mind, breathing , qi , and. Momentum, force change, center line capture layers.

4. We know today what is the very very likely reason of is spliting a long set type system to the three sets type system in 1850. And can pin point to two persons who were responsible to this WCK evolution and why.

5. The siu nim Tao of the three sets was kept in the evolution of reorganization to three sets system to cultivate the Kung. Namely, the snake body is one of the target of development. So, siu Lin Tau is the process of transform into the snake body crane limbs. Only after that, ck, bj for further development. And finally return to only siu Lin tau because all three sets merge into one when the movement become smaller and smaller.

6. The long set was evolve away due to the complex of the internal content and application . The three sets is a much better system to learn for application in short time, however with a trade off of risking totally losing the Kung and internal engine part. Evolve into only application without engine.

This theard is the evidence of many has losing the Kung or body of the art or engine. Thus, they think as they think.

7. I design the drill as the intermidiate step to aid one get transform while practicing the sets.

8. No one has to agree with me, the above is my reasons of why I do what.

This is about as wrong as it gets. Snake body never has, and never will, have anything to do with real WC.

Enjoy your WC mutation.