The Pope resigns - who here should take over?

[Syn7]

I tend to agree BUT I also know that for many, they need a tangible person to go to and they like the fellowship" aspect of churchgoing.
U don't think we need ( ever needed really) a hierarchy and organization per say.
Not every is apt to learn and research for themselves, the majority like to be taught rather than learn.

Yeah but couldnt you just have a bible group that serves the community and have everyone on equal footing and those who need it can just find a sponsor?

See, it's not the spirituality that really annoys me, it's the institution. I'm a firm believe that such an institution is not likely to change what it needs to change to not be corrupt and pretty much in many ways a pyramid scam.

I just don't think the good outweighs the bad and I also believe that everything good about it could be done by anyone with the resources.


I didn't say "ever needed". That is debatable, I'll give you that. But today, no, not needed. I have no issue with people coming together to discuss an interest. I have no issue with the natural leaders and intellectuals in said group to help those who maybe need that helping hand to follow along. I have no issue with people taking on the role of "father" of the group in that they are there to listen and give advice. It's the large scale institution I have issue with. Like you said, the hierarchy.

The whole american style breakaways make more sense to me. Not complete sense, but more sense. But even they have adapted messed up hierarchies. I do have to say though... the isolation of some of these groups have created and harboured some pretty crazy fringe elements. But that is just a reality of life, jerks and nutbags will always find a reason. Religion or not.

What really bothers me is the insinuation that you have to go through your priest. It doesn't actually come right out and say that anywhere in the books(maybe the old test, but its a much diff context)

I can't debate the details with you because you are way above my paygrade in that respect, but do you see where I'm coming from?

For the record, I grew up Catholic, I am baptized, confirmed, all that fun stuff. I just grew out of it I guess. I'm a scientist at heart and I am basically a theological non-cognitivist. When I reach the end of my understanding, I don't make leaps like that. I have hypotheses, but not actual theories.

[David Jamieson]

I think they should stop putting old white men in that chair and do a switch up.
Because hey, if they don't want a black, asian or hispanic to be pope, then they should stop sending missionaries there all the time.

[Syn7]

I think they should stop putting old white men in that chair and do a switch up.
Because hey, if they don't want a black, asian or hispanic to be pope, then they should stop sending missionaries there all the time.

The African looks like a contender, in the non european weight class anyways. I doubt the next pope will not be european though.

[GeneChing]

For the record, I grew up Catholic, I am baptized, confirmed, all that fun stuff.

That AND 80 head stitches before age 10....daaaaaaaaaaaaang. No wonder you fit in so well around here.

Because hey, if they don't want a black, asian or hispanic to be pope, then they should stop sending missionaries there all the time.

Good one, DJ. LOL for realz.

[Kellen Bassette]

Cartman wins. The Imaginationland trilogy..pure gold.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah but couldnt you just have a bible group that serves the community and have everyone on equal footing and those who need it can just find a sponsor?

See, it's not the spirituality that really annoys me, it's the institution. I'm a firm believe that such an institution is not likely to change what it needs to change to not be corrupt and pretty much in many ways a pyramid scam.

I just don't think the good outweighs the bad and I also believe that everything good about it could be done by anyone with the resources.


I didn't say "ever needed". That is debatable, I'll give you that. But today, no, not needed. I have no issue with people coming together to discuss an interest. I have no issue with the natural leaders and intellectuals in said group to help those who maybe need that helping hand to follow along. I have no issue with people taking on the role of "father" of the group in that they are there to listen and give advice. It's the large scale institution I have issue with. Like you said, the hierarchy.

The whole american style breakaways make more sense to me. Not complete sense, but more sense. But even they have adapted messed up hierarchies. I do have to say though... the isolation of some of these groups have created and harboured some pretty crazy fringe elements. But that is just a reality of life, jerks and nutbags will always find a reason. Religion or not.

What really bothers me is the insinuation that you have to go through your priest. It doesn't actually come right out and say that anywhere in the books(maybe the old test, but its a much diff context)

I can't debate the details with you because you are way above my paygrade in that respect, but do you see where I'm coming from?

For the record, I grew up Catholic, I am baptized, confirmed, all that fun stuff. I just grew out of it I guess. I'm a scientist at heart and I am basically a theological non-cognitivist. When I reach the end of my understanding, I don't make leaps like that. I have hypotheses, but not actual theories.

You are not going to get any arguments from me dude.
Religious hierarchy, ie: Organized religion, has more cons than pros, lots more.
Funny thing is that, historically, that wasn't the case with Christianity untill it became the official religion of Rome and "had" to become organized.
In that regards they emulated the religion that they shared the strongest roots with, Judaism and basically created their own version of the Sanhedrin and High priest, complete with ceremonial garbs and all.
Priests were simply suppose to be there to serve the Church, the church being the body of ALL believers.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Having been involved with people escaping from cults AND with fundamentalists religions/groups, I have realized they they fill a "need" or a "void" and they cater to/attract a certain personality type.
People that want to be told what IS.
People that want an "step-bystep" program for their salvation, "works" based salvation really.
People that want/need to feel apart from others ( better is another word), people that want to think they have the REAL God and only they are right.
I have noticed that when these people do get out of a cult or a "militant religion" they typically become "militant atheists".
One extreme to the other.

[Syn7]

Having been involved with people escaping from cults AND with fundamentalists religions/groups, I have realized they they fill a "need" or a "void" and they cater to/attract a certain personality type.
People that want to be told what IS.
People that want an "step-bystep" program for their salvation, "works" based salvation really.
People that want/need to feel apart from others ( better is another word), people that want to think they have the REAL God and only they are right.
I have noticed that when these people do get out of a cult or a "militant religion" they typically become "militant atheists".
One extreme to the other.

It's a common weakness manifesting in many many unfortunate ways.

To me atheism is messed up. So you say you do NOT believe anything like that and then you go and use that lack of belief as a label. If you don't believe any of that, why use it to define yourself? Why give so much credit to theists?

Me, I'm at the point where I won't even debate anything that isn't properly defined. I just don't have that in me. I think on it, wonder, hypothesize, but that's as far as I go until I have a real reason to do otherwise. So far I have not.

[Syn7]

It's not a good look when the pope is like "Fuck it, I don't wanna do this shit anymore".

Whatever his reason, it's very unusual for many reasons. Historically, mostly ego. But I'm sure more than a few have secretly tired and just plodded along till they died.

Anyone know anything about the Camerlengo that is worthy of note? All I really know is the few unsavoury comments he made about the whole pedophilia confidential thing.

[JamesC]

My vote is for PedoLucas.

[David Jamieson]

It's not a good look when the pope is like "Fuck it, I don't wanna do this shit anymore".

Whatever his reason, it's very unusual for many reasons. Historically, mostly ego. But I'm sure more than a few have secretly tired and just plodded along till they died.

Anyone know anything about the Camerlengo that is worthy of note? All I really know is the few unsavoury comments he made about the whole pedophilia confidential thing.

The dude is a walking fossil. He farts dust already. It's not that he doesn't want to, it's that he can't. He literally is physically unable to fulfill his duties and so he steps down.

I think people are reading too much into this. Maybe it's the fact that everyone sees he is a man and nothing more, nothing less?

[Jimbo]

Why do so many people around the world care so much about the pope anyway? The Vatican/Catholic church is the richest organization on the planet. All these ornate buildings, titles, rules, cover ups, etc., etc., has nothing at all to do with God/Universal Creator (or whatever you choose to call it). I realize some people need an earthly focus, but God is in your heart and in your actions, not in all this other 'stuff'.

A lot of people seem to worship the pope. And I have no doubt it strokes the pope's ego big-time. In Christianity, isn't that considered worshiping a false idol?

[Syn7]

Dogma perverts the supposed purity of god.




We will never know why for sure. Historically the church only admits a pope is sick when he's dead.

I think there is good evidence to suggest that the enormity of the job was too much for him. I also think that the legal issues most likely took a huge toll on him. He isn't some academic that lived in a library his whole life. As prefect of the sacred congregation he was right in the thick of the abuse scandals.

[David Jamieson]

Why do so many people around the world care so much about the pope anyway? The Vatican/Catholic church is the richest organization on the planet. All these ornate buildings, titles, rules, cover ups, etc., etc., has nothing at all to do with God/Universal Creator (or whatever you choose to call it). I realize some people need an earthly focus, but God is in your heart and in your actions, not in all this other 'stuff'.

A lot of people seem to worship the pope. And I have no doubt it strokes the pope's ego big-time. In Christianity, isn't that considered worshiping a false idol?

Nobody worships the pope, but he is revered by roman catholics as Christ's representative on earth. Christ's vicar if you will and Pope means Papa.

as for Idolatry, the Roman Catholic church and Christianity in general has the market corned on this from sacrament trinkets to weeping statues to...well all sorts of stuff that is utterly out of line from scripture and teachings of the gospel.
Yes, people create fan fiction for the Bible as well.

I can tell you this, Jesus NEVER said establish a hierarchical priesthood that shall be the method of intercession with god and they will collect tithes and accumulate great wealth with which they shall adorn their membership with and build great buildings of stone and gold on the backs of the poor.... etc etc. Yeah, that won't be found in those books....

This is also why I can't be bothered with organized religion from a western viewpoint. It is unbelievably corrupted on every level. Sad really, because the base message is pretty good.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Nobody worships the pope, but he is revered by roman catholics as Christ's representative on earth. Christ's vicar if you will and Pope means Papa.

as for Idolatry, the Roman Catholic church and Christianity in general has the market corned on this from sacrament trinkets to weeping statues to...well all sorts of stuff that is utterly out of line from scripture and teachings of the gospel.
Yes, people create fan fiction for the Bible as well.

I can tell you this, Jesus NEVER said establish a hierarchical priesthood that shall be the method of intercession with god and they will collect tithes and accumulate great wealth with which they shall adorn their membership with and build great buildings of stone and gold on the backs of the poor.... etc etc. Yeah, that won't be found in those books....

This is also why I can't be bothered with organized religion from a western viewpoint. It is unbelievably corrupted on every level. Sad really, because the base message is pretty good.

Idolatry is the worship of idol and no Christian worships an idol, though they may use it in their worship practise, the difference is INTENT and that is a huge difference IMO.
That said, I am NO a big fan of that stuff, so...
You are correct that Christ NEVER established a hierarchy, as a matter of fact, even the Jewish religious ( and non-religious) hierarchy were against the wishes of God.
Christ said those that are to lead MUSY serve and that no man is greater than any other.
The clergy should be there to serve not to be served, to not amass anything but to distribute everything.
The only intersession between Us and God is Christ and we "communicate" with Christ VIA the HS, the clergy was to exist ONLY to promote the gospel and to help the needy, indeed they are to lead by example.

How times have changed indeed.