The Pope resigns - who here should take over?

[mawali]

My problem is not people worshipping idols but using 'religion' to infect the social and political arena for political profit and benefit. Martin Luther was on target but the Vatican orthodoxy has always been at odds with social reality and still attempting to control lives and forcing inequity into the spiritual realm and that is abhorent in my mind. They say they are against gay marrriage but fail to see the pedophile priests using their position to trick young boys and girls into their games, priests fathering children and hiding and using church funds to pay for their offspring and recently the news of an gay porn ring servicing the needs of priests in the Vatican, per a recent Italian report of insiders spilling the beans, as it were.

[sanjuro_ronin]

i think there is fundamental irreconcilable difference between catholicism and early christianity.

the dogma of the nazarene sect is jesus is the appointed one who will be king and deliver the jews from the romans.

the dogma of paul as preached to the romans is belief in divinity of jesus to receive immortality, a bargain for personal gain.

The Messiah ship of Jesus was NOT a Jewish one.
Yes, he came to the Jews first and Israel was NOT lost.
The parable of the vineyard and those that "run" the vineyard explains that it was those that are in charge of Israel ( the vineyard) that have slain the owners son and they have lost the vineyard ( not that the vineyard-Israel- was lost).
That said, Jesus' messiahship was one of the whole world and, as Paul put it, "the Jew first and then the gentile".

Paul did NOT invent the divinity of Christ or make it about personal gain.
Paul did show that it was on a PERSONAL level that we are to know Christ ( not a corporate level with a mediator such as the high priest).
As Paul stated: There is one mediator between Man and God and that is Christ.
No one else.

[Brule]

The Messiah ship of Jesus was NOT a Jewish one.
Yes, he came to the Jews first and Israel was NOT lost.
The parable of the vineyard and those that "run" the vineyard explains that it was those that are in charge of Israel ( the vineyard) that have slain the owners son and they have lost the vineyard ( not that the vineyard-Israel- was lost).
That said, Jesus' messiahship was one of the whole world and, as Paul put it, "the Jew first and then the gentile".

Paul did NOT invent the divinity of Christ or make it about personal gain.
Paul did show that it was on a PERSONAL level that we are to know Christ ( not a corporate level with a mediator such as the high priest).
As Paul stated: There is one mediator between Man and God and that is Christ.
No one else.

It's nice to see that at least some people understand this but too many forget about it.....

[bawang]

The Messiah ship of Jesus was NOT a Jewish one.

the incident at antioch.

the faction of peter was jewish centric, the faction of paul was roman centric.

the whole controversy about jesus was a jewish one. the jews were waiting for a messiah to lead them to defeat rome. the teaching of jesus states that it was not the will of God for the jews to defeat rome and thats why he quickly lost his ten thousand followers.



my original point was, the center of christianity is the jewish people. in christian prophecy the whole world will bow down to the jews one day at zion mountain.
but to catholicism the jews are irrelevant at best. at worst, they are the synagogue of satan.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the incident at antioch.

the faction of peter was jewish centric, the faction of paul was roman centric.

the whole controversy about jesus was a jewish one. the jews were waiting for a messiah to lead them to defeat rome. the teaching of jesus states that it was not the will of God for the jews to defeat rome and thats why he quickly lost his ten thousand followers.



my original point was, the center of christianity is the jewish people. in christian prophecy the whole world will bow down to the jews one day at zion mountain.
but to catholicism the jews are irrelevant at best. at worst, they are the synagogue of satan.

It had nothing to do with Jesus, it had to do with the gentiles and whether or not that were to become Jewish if they were to follow "the Way".

As for the catholic view on Jews:

60 The people descended from Abraham would be the trustee of the promise made to the patriarchs, the chosen people, called to prepare for that day when God would gather all his children into the unity of the Church.18 They would be the root on to which the Gentiles would be grafted, once they came to believe.19

61 The patriarchs, prophets and certain other Old Testament figures have been and always will be honored as saints in all the Church's liturgical traditions.

762 The remote preparation for this gathering together of the People of God begins when he calls Abraham and promises that he will become the father of a great people.157 Its immediate preparation begins with Israel's election as the People of God. By this election, Israel is to be the sign of the future gathering of All nations.158 But the prophets accuse Israel of breaking the covenant and behaving like a prostitute. They announce a new and eternal covenant. "Christ instituted this New Covenant."
Jews are not collectively responsible for Jesus' death

597 The historical complexity of Jesus' trial is apparent in the Gospel accounts. The personal sin of the participants (Judas, the Sanhedrin, Pilate) is known to God alone. Hence we cannot lay responsibility for the trial on the Jews in Jerusalem as a whole, despite the outcry of a manipulated crowd and the global reproaches contained in the apostles' calls to conversion after Pentecost.385 Jesus himself, in forgiving them on the cross, and Peter in following suit, both accept "the ignorance" of the Jews of Jerusalem and even of their leaders.386 Still less can we extend responsibility to other Jews of different times and places, based merely on the crowd's cry: "His blood be on us and on our children!", a formula for ratifying a judicial sentence.387 As the Church declared at the Second Vatican Council:

. . . [N]either all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion. . . [T]he Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this followed from holy Scripture.388

[bawang]

It had nothing to do with Jesus, it had to do with the gentiles and whether or not that were to become Jewish if they were to follow "the Way".

sry i typed badly, i was finished talking about antioch, i was talking about the controversy with the jewish priesthood and the general jewish population.

[sanjuro_ronin]

sry i typed badly, i was finished talking about antioch, i was talking about the controversy with the jewish priesthood and the general jewish population.

It was a valid controversy since, while He preached, Jesus made it clear that it was for the "lost sheep of Israel" that He had come for.
Jesus never preached against the Torah, sure He made of made it clear that there was an over legalization of how the Torah was being interpreted by the priestly class at the time BUT on a whole He was an observant Jew and since He made on comment on how to integrate the Gentiles, that was left to the apostles and the early church to decide.
With guidance from the Holy Spirit, Paul made His view clear, Peter ( though a bit on the fence even after his revelation from Christ) and James agreed and the matter SEEMED to be settled BUT Paul still had issues when trying to join the gentiles to the Jews in his congregations.
Issues with the Sabbath and dietary restrictions more than anything else it seems.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the whole controversy about jesus was a jewish one. the jews were waiting for a messiah to lead them to defeat rome. the teaching of jesus states that it was not the will of God for the jews to defeat rome and thats why he quickly lost his ten thousand followers.

Jesus understood (knew?) what was in store for Israel if they continued in their rebellious ways and He whole message that the Kingdom of God was here, it was amongst them in Him, was to make them understand that.
They wanted freedom from Rome without freedom from sin.
As the old saying goes, " free your mind and your ass will follow" and that is what Jesus wanted, to free them spiritually first.
His prophecy of the destruction of the temple in the lifetime/generation of those hearing was a statement what what would happen.
His death made even his followers, who didn't FULLY understand His eschatological teachings, doubt his messiahship.
That changed with his resurrection of course.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's nice to see that at least some people understand this but too many forget about it.....

Its far easier to be told then to do the seeking, know what I mean?

[GeneChing]

Not our Frank... could you imagine?

However, our Frank is San Franciscan and St. Francis of Assisi is the namesake of San Francisco. I have a framed picture of St. Francis by M.C. Escher that I've been meaning to put up here in the office for months (maybe years ). It's in my desk drawer. Maybe I should do that now...

CNN Vatican analyst: Pope Francis' name choice 'precedent shattering'
By Michael Martinez, CNN
March 13, 2013 -- Updated 2135 GMT (0535 HKT)


Newly elected Pope Francis speaks to the crowd from the central balcony of St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican on Wednesday, March 13. Argentinian Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio was elected as the first pontiff from Latin America and will lead the world's 1.2 billion Catholics. Newly elected Pope Francis speaks to the crowd from the central balcony of St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican on Wednesday, March 13. Argentinian Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio was elected as the first pontiff from Latin America and will lead the world's 1.2 billion Catholics.

(CNN) -- Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio of Argentina, the new pope, is breaking historic ground by choosing the name Francis.

It's the first time the name is being used by a pope, said CNN Vatican expert John Allen.

Pope Francis chose his name in honor of St. Francis of Assisi because he is a lover of the poor, said Vatican deputy spokesman Thomas Rosica.

"Cardinal Bergoglio had a special place in his heart and his ministry for the poor, for the disenfranchised, for those living on the fringes and facing injustice," Rosica said.

St. Francis, one of the most venerated figures in the Roman Catholic Church, was known for connecting with fellow Christians, Rosica added.

Allen described the name selection as "the most stunning" choice and "precedent shattering."

"There are cornerstone figures in Catholicism," such as St. Francis, Allen said. Figures of such stature as St. Francis of Assisi seem "irrepeatable -- that there can be only one Francis," he added.

The name symbolizes "poverty, humility, simplicity and rebuilding the Catholic Church," Allen said. "The new pope is sending a signal that this will not be business as usual."

In 2010, Pope Benedict XVI recounted how St. Francis was born in 1181 or 1182 as the son of a rich Italian cloth merchant, according to the Vatican website.

Tell us what you think of the new pope

After "a carefree adolescence and youth," Francis joined the military and was taken prisoner. He was freed after becoming ill, and when he returned to Assisi, Italy, a spiritual conversion began. He abandoned his worldly lifestyle.

In a famous episode, Christ on the Cross came to life three times in the small Church of St. Damian and told him: "Go, Francis, and repair my Church in ruins," Pope Benedict XVI said, according to the Vatican's website.

"At that moment St. Francis was called to repair the small church, but the ruinous state of the building was a symbol of the dramatic and disquieting situation of the Church herself," Pope Benedict XVI said. "At that time the Church had a superficial faith which did not shape or transform life, a scarcely zealous clergy, and a chilling of love."

Pope Francis succeeds Benedict, who retired.

[Lucas]

why is he flashing gang signs? hes like; 'west side *****es, im the pope, god is my co-pilot, bring it scrubs'

[Jimbo]

why is he flashing gang signs? hes like; 'west side *****es, im the pope, god is my co-pilot, bring it scrubs'

I'm going completely OT, but I remember several years ago, some !diot gangbangers shot some deaf people who were communicating by signing, because they thought they were flashing gang signs.

[Syn7]

It's cool that they chose a non euro pope.