Chi Sao Vid crazy

[Yoshiyahu]

Why do WC roll during chi sao? I don't get what it is meant to emulate or what the purpose is. Has bugged me for sometime....

Not all Roll...Its a basic age old thing from TCM...some gung fu styles have a form of rolling...Yip Man derived Wing Chun utilizes Poon Sao. Others uses different formats.

Basically the rolling is to develop senstitivity and connection. Teaching you how to feel your opponents bridge and allow you to get used to feeling your opponent intent as he strikes. Basically the arms are rolling because when fighting you don't just stand there with your hands touching they are moving. So you conditioned your self to sense and feel while you limbs are in motion. But this is my own thoughts to why WC rolls.

Other forms is Lop Sau drills. Basically from the Lop Sao you can commence to chi sao...some will say thats gor sao or something else but in reality the intensity is too low and its all about connectivity and feeling. Also partner punching is another two man drill you can flow into chi sao from!

[try]

Thanks for your input

I get it...

I guess I find it a bit pre emptive and static? (not static as in 'still' but static as in a set, repeated regular movement) does that make sense?

Having said that, we use a saying where I train 'see but don't see' I guess in hindsight what appears to ME as static or predetermined (for want of a better word) is probably not so in actual application. In other words it's not what it looks like...!

I do chi sao under 5 ancestor (wuzu quan) system and this is without any rolling. Simply bridge (connect) and stick(/strike/or push)

In the context of fighting (i.e. moving) I think this can be dealt with using either approach. In chi sao u can be controlled through heaviness and this can subdue movement and 'trap' an opponent and hence 'make them still' to counter this the opponent must be softer or (perhaps more crudely?) use spring energy.

It's purely a question I wanted to pose. Thanks for taking time to respond

[JPinAZ]

I'm not PB or WSL lineage and regardless of who's doing it, I'd say anyone that steps back to put palms on forearms in a chi sau timeframe is:
1. Giving up space/structure
2. Giving up fwd intent (if they even had it the first place)
3. Allowing their opponent time to either disengage completely, or attack from longer range since they are technically in a san da timeframe and no longer even in a taan/bong/fook 'chi sau' one.

From me experience, when someone pushes (which is really what this really is IMO), it is usually a sign that they are not comfortable with the energy they are given and/or most likely not confortable with their skills in the given range. Same goes for grabbing IMO
Can't speak for Kwok in this regard, but in general, if someone is stepping back from the engagement and putting his palms on the forearms of his opponent, that tells me he doesn't have the the tools to deal with the chi sau timeframe in the firstplace. And usually, they will compensate for the loss of structure and timing with fast hands and quick strikes.

[hunt1]

you have real issues with Bayer don't you?
Get over it you may learn something from him one day!

LOL No problem with Phil, met him almost 20 years ago. Good guy good wing chun.

Only problem I have is with gum flapping bong lop fantasy fu warriors that think dominating students doing bong lop means they have actual martial skill and then they spend all day at the keyboard running others down without ever putting up themselves.

[hunt1]

Now this is a constructive post! Agree or disagree it provides good sound reasoning for an interpretation of a video clip.

I'm not PB or WSL lineage and regardless of who's doing it, I'd say anyone that steps back to put palms on forearms in a chi sau timeframe is:
1. Giving up space/structure
2. Giving up fwd intent (if they even had it the first place)
3. Allowing their opponent time to either disengage completely, or attack from longer range since they are technically in a san da timeframe and no longer even in a taan/bong/fook 'chi sau'.

From me experience, when someone pushes (which is really what this really is IMO), it is usually a sign that they are not comfortable with the energy they are given and/or most likely not confortable with their skills in the given range. Same goes for grabbing IMO
Can't speak for Kwok in this regard, but in general, if someone is stepping back from the engagement and putting his palms on the forearms of his opponent, that tells me he doesn't have the the tools to deal with the chi sau timeframe in the firstplace. And usually, they will compensate for the loss of structure and timing with fast hands and quick strikes to compensate.

[LFJ]

Why do WC roll during chi sao? I don't get what it is meant to emulate or what the purpose is. Has bugged me for sometime....

The rolling appearance of the drill is due to the elbow rotation into bong-sau, but it's not done without reason for the sake of rolling.

The roll is generated from the fuk-sau side. The action from low to high fuk-sau should have the same feel and intention as the punch in daan-chi-sau, which creates the need to bong-sau. Then the bong-sau partner generates the roll on the other side, creating the need for the other partner to bong-sau.

This back and forth exchange of energy creates the appearance of rolling. It shouldn't just be agreeing to roll with each other. It's the constant exchange of forward force. If there is no need, then we should just be striking. The pun-sau format is just to emulate a clash of limbs in fighting and how we can deal with it to continue striking the opponent.

[GlennR]

The rolling appearance of the drill is due to the elbow rotation into bong-sau, but it's not done without reason for the sake of rolling.

The roll is generated from the fuk-sau side. The action from low to high fuk-sau should have the same feel and intention as the punch in daan-chi-sau, which creates the need to bong-sau. Then the bong-sau partner generates the roll on the other side, creating the need for the other partner to bong-sau.

This back and forth exchange of energy creates the appearance of rolling. It shouldn't just be agreeing to roll with each other. It's the constant exchange of forward force. If there is no need, then we should just be striking. The pun-sau format is just to emulate a clash of limbs in fighting and how we can deal with it to continue striking the opponent.

As a side note to that, the mainland style I originally trained in didn't go from low fuk to high fuk.... It went low fuk to punch.

Only lineage I've seen that does this

[BPWT]

The rolling appearance of the drill is due to the elbow rotation into bong-sau, but it's not done without reason for the sake of rolling.

The roll is generated from the fuk-sau side. The action from low to high fuk-sau should have the same feel and intention as the punch in daan-chi-sau, which creates the need to bong-sau. Then the bong-sau partner generates the roll on the other side, creating the need for the other partner to bong-sau.

This back and forth exchange of energy creates the appearance of rolling. It shouldn't just be agreeing to roll with each other. It's the constant exchange of forward force. If there is no need, then we should just be striking. The pun-sau format is just to emulate a clash of limbs in fighting and how we can deal with it to continue striking the opponent.

It's like Hell froze over or something, as I am in complete agreement

The only thing I would add, is that the forward force is also a 'testing' element to poon sao. If your partner's structure is bad or they are lacking forward force, your tan, bong or fook should automatically exploit this by finding its way into the other guy's center (as a consequence of your own correct structure and correct forward force).

[Jansingsang]

It's like Hell froze over or something, as I am in complete agreement

The only thing I would add, is that the forward force is also a 'testing' element to poon sao. If your partner's structure is bad or they are lacking forward force, your tan, bong or fook should automatically exploit this by finding its way into the other guy's center (as a consequence of your own correct structure and correct forward force).

Notice how the Big talkers have so suddenly gone quiet Good post LFJ and accurate description .I would liken to add the forward energy would be Lat sau jik chun at last we can all agree on something

[LFJ]

Right on. Lat sau jik chung was implied when I said; "if there is no need (e.g. to bong-sau), then we should just be striking", but didn't want to get into that much detail describing it to a non-WC practitioner.

If we are just choosing to roll back and forth with one another without need, then we have no LSJC and are just playing pat-a-cake... "roll it, pat it, and mark it with a WC".

[Robinhood]

What's with all the rules stuff, there should be no rules in chi Sao, if that guy holds onto you , take advantage of it, it is not an advantage to hold on , usually means you don't know what to do.

[Jansingsang]

[/LIST]95]What's with all the rules stuff, there should be no rules in chi Sao, if that guy holds onto you , take advantage of it, it is not an advantage to hold on , usually means you don't know what to do.

I. dare to differ Chi sao is a drill. not a free fight per se, were some want to throw in the kitchen sink which is Incorect Yes according too ur leanage and practice you still need. to follow a.code of practice or the correct attributes will never be achieved which would lead to nonsense. we see a lot of

[Robinhood]

I. dare to differ Chi sao is a drill. not a free fight per se, were some want to throw in the kitchen sink which is Incorect Yes according too ur leanage and practice you still need. to follow a.code of practice or the correct attributes will never be achieved which would lead to nonsense. we see a lot of

Yes it is a tool to help develop you, but it is also a bridge, and if people want to start from their and work on their bridges , you need to address that connection.

[Jansingsang]

Yes it is a tool to help develop you, but it is also a bridge, and if people want to start from their and work on their bridges , you need to address that connection.

Agreed one word adaption reminds me of a seminar i attended about 2 yrs ago GLWSL were you had a mixed bag of lineages there the topic Chi sao he invited everyone to touch arms I was rather reserved as I know from passed experience things can turn ugly as you dont know the other person I did decide to go for it when i did. i heard gasps arh .Take it easy You see they thought there were gonna see a murder Iam explosive were the other was arm clinging garbage I imposed skill which Gary was so impressed he gave me a hat and chain Fond memory

[wingchunIan]

I. dare to differ Chi sao is a drill. not a free fight per se, were some want to throw in the kitchen sink which is Incorect Yes according too ur leanage and practice you still need. to follow a.code of practice or the correct attributes will never be achieved which would lead to nonsense. we see a lot of

Once you've got past dan chi sao rules are not needed in chi sao, just an understanding that it is a learning platform and sufficient respect for your training partner. With correct structure and lut sao jik cheung from your partner breaking "the rules" should result in you getting hit.