qixing & changhuxinyimen

[LFJ]

keeping with the shaolin forms history theme we've had as of late, i'd like to discuss the history and development of these two sets:

1. 七星拳 "qixingquan" (eng.: seven star boxing)
2. 长护心意门拳 "changhuxinyimenquan" (eng.: constant protection of the mind-gate boxing)

they are called "mother and son" sets, just as xiaohongquan and its matching dahongquan set. however, as we have determined most of the shaolin material evolved from rouquan and emperor zhao kuangyin's hongquan sets, i thought it would be interesting to discuss the origin of these two sets which seem to have a very interesting and unique style of their own.

changhuxinyimen is said to have been created by song dynasty monk huiwei, then altered in the yuan dynasty by jinnaluo, and in the ming dynasty by juexun, tongxiang and other warrior monks.

so any discussion on the origin of the sets, history of the creator and contributors, or the significance of their names, the style, etc. is welcome. i'd like to learn more about them if anyone has anything.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

seven stars came from 7 stars that landed on earth and they were about to attack the monks
the monks needed a new way to defend against the stars, so they made a new form called seven star form to fight off the 7 stars that came to earth to invade the monks
lol..jk..that was gay..
im bored

[GeneChing]

And I just started qixing. Qixing is really different. It's almost an anomaly. The stancework is unique, the use of the fengshou, and the fact that it's a cross pattern instead of a straight line. I just have the first half of it and am only one week in, so it's a pretty superficial understanding. I don't see the relationship between the two forms yet.

I do see the relationship between dahong and xiaohong. One totally jams the other during certain sequences. I often find that if I work one significantly more, the other collapses into it.

[LFJ]

yes, the qixing set is laid out upon the formation of the big dipper rather than the usual straight line. hence the name "seven star".

qixing and changhuxinyimen share the "rooster" steps along with the hand formation and some similar applications.

but thats the reason i ask, because they are so unique compared to the rest of the shaolin material. they must have interesting origins. even their names draw interest. "constant protection of the mind-gate" sounds as if its referring to mindfulness which in buddhism stands guard at the "six sense doors".

[sha0lin1]

One thing that I have noticed on qi xing quan is that all the video I have seen of this being done, everyone does the movements the exact same way. None of the positions are modified, added, or deleted as in other Shaolin forms. Each practitioner has his own interpretation of the flow of the form and how he emphasizes the movements but there is no variation of movements.

When I learned this form I remember thinking that this was the most unusual form that I had learned, the 7 star stance is very different, quite different from most of the traditional forms.

[GeneChing]

Well, I have the form anyway. I don't have the concluding section of changhuxingyimen yet, but I'm only a few moves away. I've been chipping on that one for several months now. Changhuxingyimen is quite long for traditional Songshan. Qixing is quite short. It was transmitted in a week. Of course, learning the move sequence and getting it are two vastly different things and the feel of qixing is pretty different; it's very challenging. I'm still grappling with applications and flow (but I'm still grappling with that in all my Songshan forms - they're so dense).

I've been pondering the changhuxingyimen and qixing as a muzi. I did notice that my changhuxingyimen jibengong lines were all messed up last night, which is typical for me for muzi forms. I've been working dahong a lot lately, and my xiaohong is totally messed up now.

This thread is super timely for me personally.

[LFJ]

One thing that I have noticed on qi xing quan is that all the video I have seen of this being done, everyone does the movements the exact same way. None of the positions are modified, added, or deleted as in other Shaolin forms. Each practitioner has his own interpretation of the flow of the form and how he emphasizes the movements but there is no variation of movements.

i've seen a few variations. for example, there were a couple kicks at the very beginning in one version i saw. and the elbow at the end of each line is sometimes different.

for example the way shi yongzhi does it is a straight elbow in gongbu. while the way i learned it is an upward vertical elbow with the feet together.

but basically they are not as varied as some other shaolin sets which can have pretty huge differences.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=w2awOCDRtrc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2RuX7jh40hc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OVTIWYlncC8&feature=related

[GeneChing]

Shi Yongzhi was one the cover of our last Shaolin Special. The photo was on loan from Shaolin: Temple of Zen: Photographs by Justin Guariglia. Yongzhi is featured in there doing qixing.

Where are the changhuxinyimen vids?

[LFJ]

changhuxinyimen is almost always abbreviated and switched around to cut out the repetition. but here are a few i've come across:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NjtAJBlIUcU&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ileVWASgtVE
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gWKVO_wlf2Y&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=d9ARnhPbkhQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZVYErJ2GZP4&feature=related

[sha0lin1]

i've seen a few variations. for example, there were a couple kicks at the very beginning in one version i saw. and the elbow at the end of each line is sometimes different.

for example the way shi yongzhi does it is a straight elbow in gongbu. while the way i learned it is an upward vertical elbow with the feet together.

but basically they are not as varied as some other shaolin sets which can have pretty huge differences.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=w2awOCDRtrc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=2RuX7jh40hc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OVTIWYlncC8&feature=related

Thanks for the vids LFJ. The way I learned it is like Yongzhi but, like you, I learned it with the vertical elbow in 7 star stance. Up until now I had not seen any variations of this form.

[GeneChing]

That last one of Liu Baoshan is a classic. I wonder when that was shot. It was at the Wushuguan, so after '88. I interviewed GM Liu in 2003 (see our 2003 November/December issue 13,000 Warriors of Taguo: Grandmaster Liu Baoshan & the World's Largest Martial Arts School). I remember he made a point about qixing and changhuxinyimen as being the most significant of the Taguo Shaolin heritage. Part of his argument was based on the murals in White Garment Hall, which he claimed represented the only forms that were Taguo's true legacy. Indeed, looking at the frescos, the hand positions look the most like feng shou in qixing and changhuxinyimen. It's notable that not all versions of changhuxinyimen use the feng shou, but with the ones that do, it certainly strengthens the muzi argument.

[LFJ]

thats interesting about the mural.

the way i learned them, they share a few of the same postures and hand positions as well as applications.

such as the feet together squat in qixing stance with the hands in what we call qianshou meaning plier-hand, one up and one down. (what is the character or meaning for fengshou?)

interestingly the arms in that position form the big dipper (seven star) as well. just kinda upside-down.

in both sets, the move immediately following that position is the left (upper) hand "brushing" off the right shoulder down the right arm as if "clearing" an opponents hand.

in qixingquan its followed by pulling the left arm back while striking forward with the right back-hand and left tantui.

in changhuxinyimenquan it is followed by wrapping the hands up to fist while lifting the left knee, which is a qinna wrist/elbow lock where the knee adds extra pressure.

[GeneChing]

feng means wind. It's a reference to the fingers being spread so the wind goes through them. I heard that from an article we ran on qixing in our 2005 May/June issue: 7 Star Fist: Shaolin Qixing Quan Revealed By Shifu Shi Xing Ying with Grace Gee, Bujin Guo, and Chen Xinghua.

[GeneChing]

I totally see the relationship now. I'm glad you mentioned the muzi connection, LFJ. I probably would not have seen that right away.

My current Shaolin master, Yanfei, confirmed the connection and broke it down a little when I asked him. He's not always forthcoming about details like that and probably would not have offered that tidbit unless pressed, so I'm really glad I asked. Many in our class are beginners.

This thread needs some lyrics. We've done the lyrics for BSL. For Songshan Shaolin, we've posted lyrics for xiaohongquan and Sal posted some old lyrics. Maybe when I get a break I'll post some (or if any of you get ambitious, please have at it!) I think I have few lyric sets for these two forms. Of course, there's always Taguo's Shaolin Gong Fu – A Course in Traditional Forms.

[LFJ]

i have the lyrics for qixingquan saved on another computer. i can post that when i get the chance. i'll probably have to dig for the changhuxinyimenquan lyrics though.

also, i'm sure if our versions differ, the lyrics will likely differ slightly as well. for example we already have the fengshou and qianshou names for the hand-form that differ.

but what i'm waiting for is of course sal or someone to come on here with some history and explanation of why these sets so strangely differ from other shaolin material and any further insight into the style.