wing chun and competition

[Kellen Bassette]

Ok your post makes some good points, but how about this?

What about our Wing Chun competition rules? If you're a TKD guys and want to fight a Wing Chun guy, why do you expect to be able to kick to the head? Surely you will have to adapt to our rules no?? And herein is the root of the issue... there is no competition for Wing Chun guys that has a decent set of rules that can be unified across the globe like there is in TKD/MMA/Boxing etc

So it's always us having to change what we do to compete with others, whereas if we can do this (Alan Orr is a good example) why can't others do the same??

Far too much inequality in this world of MA comps!

Your right, a TKD guy probably would not fare well adjusting to the different rules, without modifying and adapting his art. It would also behoove him to spar WC guys. The converse of my post is also true.

The OP was asking why we don't see much WC in kickboxing and such. I gave, what I suspect, are the reasons. Of course, in MMA you are free to use nearly all your WC techniques. I don't know much about Alan Orr or Obasi, but from what I've read they seem to be having some success. I'm sure they are adapting their arts to fight wrestlers, submission grapplers and kickboxers as well.

That's an element you probably won't find in your average WC school. If you want to fight in the sport fighting world, your going to have to spar with them and crosstrain to know their techniques. If you only want to compete against WC guys, then your fine just sparring/training with them.

[Kellen Bassette]

Maybe the story of the little nun with the mystical skills to defeat larger stronger opponents without training is way too ingrained into most practitioners.

I think your right about this. Too many traditionalist take stories like that somewhat literally. It's not magic. "Masters" are only human. You can't learn to fight without fighting.

As I said, I'm not a WC guy; and I don't know much at all about Alan Orr, but if he claims his core is WC, I believe him; and if he's having success with his fighters; I'm sure it's because he's realistically training them for fighting.

Instead of telling him it's not WC; I would be more interested in how he's training his art differently than a school that cannot produce a successful fighter.

[Robinhood]

What works in the ring, are based on the rules of the ring period. If they had not gone to gloves in the ring, you would not have all those hay maker striking if you did that on the street you would break your hand....etc.

What really counts is can you hit a target and cause an effect without luck.

[Kellen Bassette]

What works in the ring, are based on the rules of the ring period. If they had not gone to gloves in the ring, you would not have all those hay maker striking if you did that on the street you would break your hand....etc.

What really counts is can you hit a target and cause an effect without luck.

Your right, that's why it would require some adaptation to use WC in the ring. Although I believe most traditional arts can be adapted to sport fighting, without compromising the core of the system; so long as you train for fighting.

Something that interests me is the evolution, (or de-evolution) of Muay Boran into modern Muay Thai. MTB used a LOT of the traditional methods common to TMA in general and had a much broader range of technique than modern MT.

Now you can't say it changed because they started fighting. MTB always had a history of sport fighting; and the old "rules" were much more lenient than the modern rules. The adaptation of the modern rule set, rounds, ring and boxing gloves forced the old MT fighters, to adapt and evolve into the modern MT fighters. I suspect that the boxing gloves may have been one of the most important factors in this transition.

Sorry for the weird tangent, that's just how my head works.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What works in the ring, are based on the rules of the ring period. If they had not gone to gloves in the ring, you would not have all those hay maker striking if you did that on the street you would break your hand....etc.

What really counts is can you hit a target and cause an effect without luck.

Yeah, you're right, round kicks, left hooks, right cross, elbows, knees, RNC, that crap can never work in the street.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Your right, that's why it would require some adaptation to use WC in the ring. Although I believe most traditional arts can be adapted to sport fighting, without compromising the core of the system; so long as you train for fighting.

Something that interests me is the evolution, (or de-evolution) of Muay Boran into modern Muay Thai. MTB used a LOT of the traditional methods common to TMA in general and had a much broader range of technique than modern MT.

Now you can't say it changed because they started fighting. MTB always had a history of sport fighting; and the old "rules" were much more lenient than the modern rules. The adaptation of the modern rule set, rounds, ring and boxing gloves forced the old MT fighters, to adapt and evolve into the modern MT fighters. I suspect that the boxing gloves may have been one of the most important factors in this transition.

Sorry for the weird tangent, that's just how my head works.

Instead of looking at what is different from MB and MT, look at what is the same.
MT is not an evolution or devolution of MB, it is the modern sport version of it, a different art.
Think JJJ and Judo.
The thing is, because the sport versions allowed people to fight and train more, they became more effective.
This is old news.

[Robinhood]

Yeah, you're right, round kicks, left hooks, right cross, elbows, knees, RNC, that crap can never work in the street.

Anything will work if you can hit your target, what's your point ?

What is the risk - reward and probability of success ?,

[Kellen Bassette]

Instead of looking at what is different from MB and MT, look at what is the same.
MT is not an evolution or devolution of MB, it is the modern sport version of it, a different art.
Think JJJ and Judo.
The thing is, because the sport versions allowed people to fight and train more, they became more effective.
This is old news.

Well it's interesting in that MTB was a sport combat art as well. It just had more of the traditional trimmings and culture in place. It's not really the same as comparing Karate and kickboxing, because MTB was always used for sport fighting.

What would be interesting would be to go back and see how similar, or different, a Muay Boran fight would have looked from a modern MT fight. Sadly I don't think that will ever happen.

But I get your main point, core techniques of fighting are proven and simple, the original core of MTB is probably all still intact in MT.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Anything will work if you can hit your target, what's your point ?

What is the risk - reward and probability of success ?,

My point was what you said:

What works in the ring, are based on the rules of the ring period. If they had not gone to gloves in the ring, you would not have all those hay maker striking if you did that on the street you would break your hand....etc.

Is irrelevant and incorrect since we see clips of "haymakers' working in "real fights" al the time.
What works in any given "ring" is what has been PROVEN to work over and over.
That goes for the "street" as well.
Funny thing is that everything that works in the ring ( typically) works in the street as well.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well it's interesting in that MTB was a sport combat art as well. It just had more of the traditional trimmings and culture in place. It's not really the same as comparing Karate and kickboxing, because MTB was always used for sport fighting.

What would be interesting would be to go back and see how similar, or different, a Muay Boran fight would have looked from a modern MT fight. Sadly I don't think that will ever happen.

But I get your main point, core techniques of fighting are proven and simple, the original core of MTB is probably all still intact in MT.

The main difference from what I have seen, is that MG has more grappling and weapons work.
Strike wise, they have more open hands but truth be told, ask any MT coach about the old MB techniques and I have yet to see one that DOESN'T know about them.

[Kellen Bassette]

The main difference from what I have seen, is that MG has more grappling and weapons work.
Strike wise, they have more open hands but truth be told, ask any MT coach about the old MB techniques and I have yet to see one that DOESN'T know about them.

Yeah, we may kind of read too much into it. I trained with a former fighter in rural Thailand, he did what some call "traditional" MT...the sport version, but the older style, where they don't really use the hooks and uppercuts, a bit different foot work ect...most they guys I seen in the country trained like this....

Anyway, I asked him about Muay Boran. He just said it's the same thing. If you want to use Muay Boran techniques when you fight, just practice them.

[LaRoux]

One should train specifically to suite the purpose. If you like to drive fast, you buy a sports car. If you like to go off road, you buy a 4WD. You don't buy a sports car to go bush.

The requirement of being a soldier, for example, is very different from police, or bouncer, or psychiatric nurse, or UFC, or performers/actors, or civilian self-defense. You can't really say what is better, only what is suitable for the job.

WC, IMHO, basically focus on the "Hit and Run" strategy, to get you out of trouble ASAP. It's generally not designed for sport/competition (although some groups are getting good results).

Excellent point about training for the purpose.

The disconnect comes in actually using it.

If you are training for the streets, and you are not regularly fighting in the streets, you probably aren't going to fare very well there.

Training to fight in the streets and not fighting there is pretty much the same as training for competition and then never competing. The first time you compete, you probably won't perform very well.

[LaRoux]

Ok your post makes some good points, but how about this?

What about our Wing Chun competition rules? If you're a TKD guys and want to fight a Wing Chun guy, why do you expect to be able to kick to the head? Surely you will have to adapt to our rules no?? And herein is the root of the issue... there is no competition for Wing Chun guys that has a decent set of rules that can be unified across the globe like there is in TKD/MMA/Boxing etc

So it's always us having to change what we do to compete with others, whereas if we can do this (Alan Orr is a good example) why can't others do the same??

Far too much inequality in this world of MA comps!

There is a venue that makes all martial arts systems adapt to its rules. It's called MMA.

[GlennR]

ok I agree Wing Chun is mostly trained for use in street encounters, but if its primary weapon is the punch and in virtually every video clip available said punches are being aimed at the head (or worse the chest) then there is no valid argument for why it doesn't translate to the combat sports arena unless of course its just a steaming pile of excrement which I don't personally believe it is.

It's too predictable.

Has a limited "kill zone" I regards to range

It's strengths are its weaknesses.

[desertwingchun2]

For me Wing Chun greatly enhanced my ability to protect myself in real world environments. So I would say it is a very effective system for me.

Now if I was one to want to compete in a sporting event, I would say Wing Chun alone would not be my choice.

In the encounters I had on the street, things happened pretty quickly and were over very quickly. The guys I encountered were tough guys but not the kind of tough guys you find in the sporting world.

In the sporting world these guys train to have endurance for days. They get pounded on daily. I am not only talking MMA but boxers as well. So they are expecting hard knocks and are not surprised when you counter and land a strike or kick or any other physical contact.

Also in the sporting world there is no fear of getting shanked, shot, or security rushing in to stop the ruckus. Master Andres Hoffman has guys using Weng Chun and BJJ with great success. Alan has his guys doing their thing with great success. What you don't see is either standing flat footed waiting to use the "Mythical Nun Skills" as described by Wayfaring.

So in short if you want to live in the sport world train and execute like they do in the sports world. If you want to add to your self defense skills or want to get into a martial art for various reasons then I would say WC is the way to go.

And if you want an esoteric culmination of mumbo jumbo and an instructor who made up his own branch of WC go seek Hendrick. Only you wont learn any self defense because he can not defense himself!!! HAHAHAHA