wing chun and competition

[LFJ]

Sure, we didn't have a cage though, but a boxing ring setup. We were in it all the time since the place was ours.

Why do you doubt the effectiveness of WC? Or why do you even train it if you doubt it? If you can't use it against one person in a protected environment, what makes you think it'll be useful anywhere else less protected?

[k gledhill]

There were a few WC punters in the early days of MMA, but most of them got beat, often very quickly and soundly.

Alan's Orr's guys have done well, but I'm sure Alan would agree that WC with no modification and without serious training in grappling and groundfighting is unlikely to prevail.

Some of Rick Spain's students have done OK in cage fights too, including a win over a BJJ black belt by Nick Ariel, but all of them only succeeded after extensive cross training.

Trying to be "a WC guy who wins in MMA" is to go on a fool's errand. If you want to win an MMA fight (or boxing, kickboxing, MT, wrestling, ...) go to a gym that trains people specifically for those competitive sports. Your Sifu who has only every trained and taught WC is the wrong guy for the job.

The main problem with WC goes back to when guys like William Cheung, Kernspecht, etc etc. claimed their art to the baddest and deadliest on the planet, then had all those claims proved to be false in actual contests. Their claims were proved to be at best delusional.

Arguing about rules impeding WC is just rubbish. You need to adapt what you do to the rules, even if it were to bring the ire of the self appointed pundits on internet WC forums.

Agree BJJ + VT is a good combo with a knowledge of clinching/knees/defense. But inversely in a real fight the 3rd degree BB BJJ mma coach in our gym recommends VT ...go figure.
He said the easiest way to turn a BB BJJ into a Brown Belt is punch him once in the face, to turn a Brown Belt into a white belt punch him twice in the face. Sound advice.

[Wayfaring]

Trying to be "a WC guy who wins in MMA" is to go on a fool's errand. If you want to win an MMA fight (or boxing, kickboxing, MT, wrestling, ...) go to a gym that trains people specifically for those competitive sports. Your Sifu who has only every trained and taught WC is the wrong guy for the job.

There really shouldn't be a problem with a WCK sifu being a specialist striking coach in a MMA camp. If they were keeping it real and training against real talent, even the centerline concept alone would help keep strikers motions in tighter and more compact, which would be an improvement over the wide striking you see pretty commonly.

The problem is, people want a resume for that. And right now, the number of WCK sifus who have any experience in a ring or cage is probably down to less than I can count on one hand. And those guys will be the ones that get those jobs later on.

[GlennR]

Sure, we didn't have a cage though, but a boxing ring setup. We were in it all the time since the place was ours.

Why do you doubt the effectiveness of WC? Or why do you even train it if you doubt it? If you can't use it against one person in a protected environment, what makes you think it'll be useful anywhere else less protected?

So youve sparred a bit..

I dont doubt WC's effectiveness as a self defense style, but as a sport combat style........... no.

Saying it so doesnt make it so.

[GlennR]

There really shouldn't be a problem with a WCK sifu being a specialist striking coach in a MMA camp. If they were keeping it real and training against real talent, even the centerline concept alone would help keep strikers motions in tighter and more compact, which would be an improvement over the wide striking you see pretty commonly.

The problem is, people want a resume for that. And right now, the number of WCK sifus who have any experience in a ring or cage is probably down to less than I can count on one hand. And those guys will be the ones that get those jobs later on.

To be honest, i think WC has had plenty of opportunity to prove itself in the MMA environment (nearly 2 decades since the 1st UFC) and it just hasnt.

The evidence just isnt there

[LFJ]

So youve sparred a bit..

What's that supposed to mean? We didn't have sanctioned bouts, but we went just as hard as any sport fight, in the ring with the round clock and everything. What's the difference? Perhaps your Wing Chun just doesn't work at all?

I dont doubt WC's effectiveness as a self defense style, but as a sport combat style........... no.

I don't understand...

Can you explain why you think Wing Chun would be effective in an unprotected environment where various weapons, multiple attackers and other obstacles may come into play against you, yet somehow, take away all those obstacles, put two guys with just two arms and two legs on a flat surface in an open, large enough space with only a fence to keep them in it... and suddenly WC loses it's effectiveness?

So against four guys in a bar swinging fists, glass mugs, bar stools, and whatnot, you think, "I can handle this", but against one guy and his fists on an open canvas you're screwed right?

I'd say if you can't handle one guy in a fair match, you can forget the rest. You shouldn't even be doing WC if that's what you're getting from it and can't find a better instructor.

[GlennR]

What's that supposed to mean? We didn't have sanctioned bouts, but we went just as hard as any sport fight, in the ring with the round clock and everything. What's the difference? Perhaps your Wing Chun just doesn't work at all?

It exactly what ive said, youve sparred a bit...... you just reek of no real experience

Shall i tell you a third time?

I don't understand...

Yep

Can you explain why you think Wing Chun would be effective in an unprotected environment where various weapons, multiple attackers and other obstacles may come into play against you, yet somehow, take away all those obstacles, put two guys with just two arms and two legs on a flat surface in an open, large enough space with only a fence to keep them in it... and suddenly WC loses it's effectiveness?

If you think weapons play and sport combat are the same thing then that says it all.

So ill give you a hint, ones about survival and the others about winning.... have a think about it in between lecturing the forum

So against four guys in a bar swinging fists, glass mugs, bar stools, and whatnot, you think, "I can handle this", but against one guy and his fists on an open canvas you're screwed right?

See highlighted comment above. Oh, and you can fight multiple opponents can you?
Wow........ youre awesome....

I'd say if you can't handle one guy in a fair match, you can forget the rest. You shouldn't even be doing WC if that's what you're getting from it and can't find a better instructor.

Honestly, your little cheap insults are getting a bit tiresome so ill leave you to it.

So ill just plod along shortly to my MT session tonight ,and then spar later using my "poor WC" for what its worth, and leave you to bask in your online glory

So keep being anonymous, keep insulting and keep tapping away if thats what turns you on

[LFJ]

Shall i tell you a third time?

Yes, if it's unsanctioned then it's just sparring and is nothing like a "real bout"? Is that your opinion?

If you think weapons play and sport combat are the same thing then that says it all.

Don't believe I said so. But I don't see why WC can work in real life, but not in a fair match. You haven't explained.

So ill give you a hint, ones about survival and the others about winning.... have a think about it in between lecturing the forum

So you think WC is only good for hit and run? What if there is no possibility of fleeing? You're dead? Why do you even train WC then? Any other martial art that can be used in or out of the ring should be superior. Time would be more well spent not bothering with WC at all.

[anerlich]

If WC "can work" against multiple attackers, possible weapons, and other obstacles in real life, then why should it not work against one man on a flat surface in an open, large enough space with no weapons or obstacles but a fence. It's just you vs him. Two arms, two legs. He may be a trained fighter, but so are you. Right?

Your first premise is open to challenge, and there is scant real world evidence for your conclusion.

You can argue that it should work in the ring, but what evidence there is says that with few exceptions like Alan Orr it DOESN'T.

[LFJ]

I guess it depends on what you take as evidence. If that's what you use to determine WC's effectiveness, I have to ask why you even bother with it.

For myself, it has done what it was designed to do wherever I have had to use it. That's enough for me to keep it up. I don't mind if others can't consistently reproduce the same results. Maybe it's just not for the majority of folks?

[wingchunIan]

Interesting that we've got to so many pages and other than a single post by GlenR talking about range no one has yet been able to offer any explanation as to why Wing Chun can't be used in the competition arena but is alledgedly so effective on the street..........

[Graham H]

Interesting that we've got to so many pages and other than a single post by GlenR talking about range no one has yet been able to offer any explanation as to why Wing Chun can't be used in the competition arena but is alledgedly so effective on the street..........

You need to look harder.

Here is my view so you don't have to waste any time looking

Outside in the real world there are no boundries and limits set by what one can do in a fight. In a controlled environment there are rules and regs that, if broken, will lead to being disqualified or banned.

If I face a guy in the street my goal would be to finish things in quick time if I could. The eyes, groin and throat are my normal targets should my punch not have a positive impact i.e a quick knock out. If inside the cage all these things were taken away from me my chances of winning drastically reduce.

What if you put a well conditioned WC fighter who likes to brawl in the street against a MMA fighter with 1 bout experience and was in not too good shape?

What about the other way around?

How do you know that the worse "cross training" WC fighter on this forum could not be beaten into submission by best pure WC fighter outside in the middle of the road?

The other thing is protection. In the cage you have protection which reduces the amount of damage a strike can do. In the street its bare knuckle to jaw.

Ving Teaches teaches one to win by all means necessary. In the cage you have limits. Those limits make winning harder especially if both guys are mis matched in weight and strength.

That brings up the question of weight division segregation match ups and ring experience......none of that out on the pavement.

Ving Tsun exploits weakenesses where ever possible. MMA cannot function outside the rules. The fighter that loses that day may will win the next encounter. How many street fights have you had against the same person and trained harder for the victory? How many times have you had a street fight and taken time out to recover?

WC vs MMA is actually one of the most pointless questions inside these threads IMO. They will just go on and on and on with all the haters on one side and all the purists on the other...................boring.

[anerlich]

by Kev

the 3rd degree BB BJJ mma coach in our gym

What a coincidence. I got one of those too. Except I actually work out with him rather than trade aphorisms.

Also have a WC classmate, Nick Ariel, who has beaten a BJJ Black belt in an MMA match.

Thanks for your advice, but I have much better qualified advisers already.

Go figure.

[Graham H]

..........BTW

Your average Wing Chun guy stuck in a cage with a conditioned MMA fighter will only have a punchers chance.

That's my opinion.

[LFJ]

There are other TMAs that get taken into MMA bouts and have all those quick kill moves taken away too. They fair well. Machida is an example. Black belts in Shotokan Karate and BJJ. There is absolutely no reason VT+BJJ shouldn't work well, unless VT is just an inferior striking art. And if people believe this, I have no idea why they'd want to spend time training it, when there is more evidence of other arts working well in and out of competition.