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Thread: WCK and Ground Fighting

  1. #61
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    You are correct. WC is not a technique based system. If all you know is the technique within the form you have one technique. If you understand the concepts and principals behind each technique within the forms you have a hundred techniques. Example would be Gum Sau. One can see it in the WC forms as a block. Knowing the concepts behind it suddenly you see it as not only a block but as a take over trap, retrap and a conversion press as well among other things.
    Last edited by CRCAUSA; 02-20-2013 at 04:57 PM.

  2. #62
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    Right on HyBridWarrior. Gotta go train now. See you tomorrow.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robinhood View Post
    what they are missing in their wc structure, not more techniques.
    What structure can give you "Rear Naked Choke"? What structure can give you "Full Nelson Hold"?

    TCMA is more than just to meet you fist with your opponent's face.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 02-20-2013 at 08:44 PM.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Hello,

    My, Sifu Chung Kwok Chow, has incorporated BJJ into his Wing Chun System.

    Having said that, this is not something which I gravitate towards. I guess my idea if I go to the ground is to get back to my feet as quickly as possible. Even when I used to do Judo and competed I was known for being a very good thrower but lousy ground fighter. Just never did like the idea of being on the ground while someones friends could be standing around me doing other things while I was "wrestling" with their buddy.
    The problem with your thinking is, what if you're mounted by some big dude who knows positional control? Try as you might, you're not getting back to your feet as quickly as possible without a clue about ground fighting. You're more than likely gonna end up unconsciousness from a face pounding or have something broken.

    BTW, you realize there's a difference between street applicable BJJ and the sportive aspect which is not street safe? Street BJJ isn't about "wrestling" the opponent. If you create a chance to get up and go, you do. Be it by a quick joint destruction or just escape, such as reversing the mount. You don't have to then stay on top of them.

    That's all I really have interest in using it for. At least that much is necessary, and it makes a good pair with VT, as it's also mainly concept based- but addressing a different situation than VT which you may find yourself in.

    Wing Chun "techniques" on the ground like Randy Williams shows is nonsense a BJJ white belt could deal with, or almost any untrained person, and won't get you back to your feet as quickly as possible.

  5. #65
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    There was groundfighting in Wing Chun and TCMA well before Randy Williams, according to a subsequently deleted post on the earlier version of this thread, began exploring it in 1989.

    I had my first groundfighting lesson in 1977 from a former student of William Cheung.

    The techniques involve mainly using the legs to keep the opponent away, versions of what is called in MMA the "up-kick", and a few leg entanglements and takedowns. The idea being not to stay on the ground but to give yourself time to get back up.

    IIRC Renzo KO'd Oleg Taktarov in an early UFC with the up-kick. They can work very well if the other guy isn't careful about how he moves in. A Goes/Sakuraba match in Pride also demonstrated effective up-kicking by Goes against a pretty worthy opponent.

    Even Antonio Inoki used this approach in his exhibition match against Muhammad Ali. Boring as h3ll, but it worked.

    I don't really know if this sort of stuff is really WC or a generic TCMA approach, because I have seen similar techs performed by non-WC TCMA stylists as well.

    In any case, it was around and well established while RW was still a twinkle in his father's eye.

    How does this match up against a solid groundfighting and grappling system like BJJ, IMO?

    Well, both my WC Sifu and I took up BJJ in 1998 and are now brown belts under John Will.

    IMO WC is a standup pugilistic system. BJJ is a specialist groundfighting system. Trying to make WC work on the ground is like trying to make BJJ work standing up.

    YOU ARE USING THE WRONG TOOL FOR THE JOB.

    Trying to "expand the style" into new areas for which it is not designed is IMO a waste of time except for stylistic/religious fundamentalists and those trying to look for a niche in which to sell instructional DVD's or provide a marketing point of difference.

    If you care more about fighting effectively than you do about being defending the honour of WC and the Shaolin temple, IMO you'll look at the most effective way to reach that goal, which IMO is to crosstrain in multiple arts.
    Last edited by anerlich; 02-20-2013 at 09:55 PM.
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  6. #66
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    A larger question would be who else out there in WC in actively working on using their WC for ground fighting? By that I don't mean incorporating techniques from other systems into WC but actually trying to use WC on the ground.
    Nobody, hopefully, for reasons I gave in my earlier post.

    Some people like blazing trails when there's an 8 lane superhighway going in the same direction (the BJJ school down the street), but I'm not among them.
    Last edited by anerlich; 02-20-2013 at 09:55 PM.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    The techniques involve mainly using the legs to keep the opponent away, versions of what is called in MMA the "up-kick", and a few leg entanglements and takedowns. The idea being not to stay on the ground but to give yourself time to get back up.
    All of that is good, but what about when the opponent takes you down and is stuck on you? You can't just kick them off. So all of that is as useless as standing skills when someone is mounted on you. You have to know what to do. VT won't give it to you.

    I don't really know if this sort of stuff is really WC or a generic TCMA approach, because I have seen similar techs performed by non-WC TCMA stylists as well.
    We had a ground fighting thread in the Shaolin forum. Songshan Shaolin has a body of ground skills called ditanggong, not too dissimilar to street BJJ, with the objective of quick joint destruction or positional escape to get back to one's feet. Think, in ancient times, on a battlefield. You're rolling on the ground and another dude running by sticks you with a spear, or the guy you're tangled with guts you. The goal is never to stay on the ground as in sportive BJJ. There are some BJJ guys who make the mistake of training sportive BJJ so much they think it's street safe. Then they get the old GNP because they weren't focused on defending punches, which aren't allowed in sport.
    Last edited by LFJ; 02-20-2013 at 09:58 PM.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    All of that is good, but what about when the opponent takes you down and is stuck on you? You can't just kick them off. So all of that is as useless as standing skills when someone is mounted on you. You have to know what to do. VT won't give it to you.
    I really like the Gracie Combatives for the mount escape stuff and for preventing GNP. The Cliff notes are control posture, keep him from posturing up in mount, and if he does get there insert a knee between you and the incoming punch. Then the bridge and roll and hip escape are the two bread and butter escapes from under mount.

  9. #69
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    I agree. I think any VT practitioner should at least have a working knowledge of something similar to the Gracie Combatives, to at least know how to survive on the ground and get back into VT territory.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    I think any VT practitioner should at least have a working knowledge of something similar to the Gracie Combatives, to at least know how to survive on the ground and get back into VT territory.
    I dont think so

    Where do you want to stop? To survive in modern society maybe you should train everything all together. Maybe you want to be a universal soldier or something

    I'm happy with "just" Ving Tsun.

    Most people will never need to use it for real so what other reasons are there. Enjoyment? Keeping fit? Socializing? All those I guess. Nobody is really fighting here are they?

    Men have egos. Men like to think they can beat all other men and protect there morals and egos. If they lack something they have to fill the gaps with other things so they feel they can survive. Thousands of years have made us this way. Its evolution through natural selection and it has culminated on this forum with the question of whether "just" knowing Ving Tsun will see you right in a brawl if you get taken to the ground. LMAO
    Last edited by Graham H; 02-21-2013 at 07:23 AM.

  11. #71
    Enjoying the discussion,
    It seems that whether one is wishes to address groundwork with : using/ expanding theories or pricinples, using pieces of forms or integrating/reverse engineering other disciplines; at the root of it all, we are doing the same thing: addressing our challenges that we face today with that have changed since WC was created. For me, the main reason to train is for self defense, I think that we all can agree WC focus on efficiency is awesome, but to honesty address self defense today, you have to consider groundwork, guns, modern knives, and how criminals are attacking (larger groups...).
    The fact that people in the community are trying to address and comment their best solutions should be encouraged... It can deepen our own understandings.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by CarlosCrcaporto View Post
    If you think they are inferior thatīs your problem not mine, how many of you try a technique in a real fight in the street? maybe you only try them in training or in competition, but in the streets the things are different, in the streets maybe somebody want to kill you and not just to win a trophy, in the streets the fights starts on your foot, and maybe, just mabe goes to the floor, but no one wants to be there, you want to know way? cause in the street the people have shoes to kick you and the floor is not soft like your gym so if you put me down to the floor maybe you hurt me, but for sure you are going to hurt you too, cause the streets floor is hard and not soft.
    Yep, the streets are definitely a little different than the ring. They are, however, light years different than the stuff Randy is teaching and the way you guys are practicing your stuff in your schools.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by CRCAUSA View Post
    I would agree with that and I appreciate hearing from someone that doesn't have an ax to grind. BJJ is great and no one here denies that. What RW is trying to do is innovate WC techniques into something that will offer some response in those situations. Obviously if we really wanted to learn BJJ instead of WC we would be doing that. Whether you agree with RW or not at least he is trying to advance the art and is making an attempt to keep up with the times.
    It seems a lot smarter to me for him to simply take the things he is learning from established grapplers and teach those the way that those grapplers are teaching him.

    He's not ready to be innovating. When he gets to the same level as a brown or black belt grappler, then maybe he will be ready to innovate.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by CRCAUSA View Post
    A larger question would be who else out there in WC in actively working on using their WC for ground fighting? By that I don't mean incorporating techniques from other systems into WC but actually trying to use WC on the ground.
    I'm guessing most guys who do WC and get to black or brown belt level will probably start to merge the two in a constructive manner.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by CarlosCrcaporto View Post
    Well I think I already answer that, all system needed to be updated, and after all the groundfighting in CRCA starts to many years ago, Iīm not saying we invent the wheel but we sure helped to improve it.
    That didn't look like improvement to me. The guys who are improving thing are guys like Anerlich and his instructor who are taking the time and effort to actually become good grapplers first.
    Last edited by LaRoux; 02-21-2013 at 08:02 AM.

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