WCK and Ground Fighting

[Wayfaring]

On another thread that got out of control with challenges, videos were posted up of Randy Williams where he is teaching ground fighting. Here's one defense to the RNC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLWTQEoV9Nk

Here's another teaching some kind of MMA attack on the turtle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VikQ9NrNx8g

We have a Dave Camarillo BJJ black belt on here defending these videos and saying they represent valid options involving ground fighting in a real situation.

I disagree. I also was kind of amazed a Dave Camarillo black belt (CRCAVA) would state things like that.

Here's the exact problems I see with the two videos:

1) RNC - first, the non-choking hand is sunk behind the neck. This is very deep, and immediate attention must be give to unraveling this or you won't have time to throw anyone over your head before escaping because you'll be out. second, dropping to one knee like that will be an open invitation for even a BJJ white belt to jump on the back and sink hooks in, thus isolating the body and preventing being thrown over randy's head. this is completely the wrong thing to do there. even the standard step behind the guys legs, lift him and slam that's taught as a self-defense to the full nelson is a more plausible technique in that situation than what Randy is teaching.

2) Turtle Attack - randy starts with stepping on the hand, after which ends any valuable info being communicated. He is teaching a smash first, but there is no contact at all between randy's chest and the turtled guy's chest. Thus there is plenty of space for the bottom guy to escape. Next, he shows two "smash" elbows. The first is more normal, the second turns his back on the opponent to strike, with space. This is asking for his back to get taken. The leg grab and smash as well as the supposed ankle break are completely valueless and will accomplish nothing at all. Believing they will do something is downright dangerous.

Now I'm not making a summary judgement on all of randy's ground fighting stuff. I mean I'm glad he's at least addressing it, which is more than most. But why on earth he would be teaching that garbage rather than having a Dave Camarillo black belt teach better technique, I have no clue.

Ideas?

[CRCAVA]

Sifu Williams is addressing ground fighting in a Wing Chun format... For people that train WC.. If you are a student of purely WC these are effective options to defend yourself against the average "non trained" guy on the street. They are not designed to beat MMA or BJJ and Randy never claims they will either. Again as previously stated in the other thread these videos are being over analyzed... If you want to be a MMA student that's great and you can cross train with BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Wing Chun etc... Randy's ground fighting is to give a WC purist a fighting chance on the ground. It should be commended not bashed.

[LaRoux]

On another thread that got out of control with challenges, videos were posted up of Randy Williams where he is teaching ground fighting. Here's one defense to the RNC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLWTQEoV9Nk

Here's another teaching some kind of MMA attack on the turtle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VikQ9NrNx8g

We have a Dave Camarillo BJJ black belt on here defending these videos and saying they represent valid options involving ground fighting in a real situation.

I disagree. I also was kind of amazed a Dave Camarillo black belt (CRCAVA) would state things like that.

Here's the exact problems I see with the two videos:

1) RNC - first, the non-choking hand is sunk behind the neck. This is very deep, and immediate attention must be give to unraveling this or you won't have time to throw anyone over your head before escaping because you'll be out. second, dropping to one knee like that will be an open invitation for even a BJJ white belt to jump on the back and sink hooks in, thus isolating the body and preventing being thrown over randy's head. this is completely the wrong thing to do there. even the standard step behind the guys legs, lift him and slam that's taught as a self-defense to the full nelson is a more plausible technique in that situation than what Randy is teaching.

2) Turtle Attack - randy starts with stepping on the hand, after which ends any valuable info being communicated. He is teaching a smash first, but there is no contact at all between randy's chest and the turtled guy's chest. Thus there is plenty of space for the bottom guy to escape. Next, he shows two "smash" elbows. The first is more normal, the second turns his back on the opponent to strike, with space. This is asking for his back to get taken. The leg grab and smash as well as the supposed ankle break are completely valueless and will accomplish nothing at all. Believing they will do something is downright dangerous.

Now I'm not making a summary judgement on all of randy's ground fighting stuff. I mean I'm glad he's at least addressing it, which is more than most. But why on earth he would be teaching that garbage rather than having a Dave Camarillo black belt teach better technique, I have no clue.

Ideas?

Finally! Someone demonstrates some actual knowledge about the principles behind this stuff.

Bravo to you!

[LaRoux]

Sifu Williams is addressing ground fighting in a Wing Chun format... For people that train WC.. If you are a student of purely WC these are effective options to defend yourself against the average "non trained" guy on the street. They are not designed to beat MMA or BJJ and Randy never claims they will either. Again as previously stated in the other thread these videos are being over analyzed... If you want to be a MMA student that's great and you can cross train with BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Wing Chun etc... Randy's ground fighting is to give a WC purist a fighting chance on the ground. It should be commended not bashed.

That's kind of like a boxer teaching ground fighting from a boxing format. It doesn't really make a lot of sense to be doing that. Crappy technique that ignores the basic principles of grappling is still crappy technique.

If you really are a BJJ black belt, one has to wonder why you aren't advocating for using good, useful techniques that would add the the WC persons's toolbox, rather than teaching them techniques that will only work against someone who has no clue what he is doing.

You'd also think that a BJJ black belt would at least be discussing the flaws in these techniques, simply to give people an idea of what to expect from a more highly trained guy than just the "average" guy on the street that he is assuming has never had any basic training in how to apply a choke.

I find it interesting that wayfaring was able to dissect the underlying principles to point out the flaws in the techniques, but that a supposed Camarillo black belt was unable to do this.

[LaRoux]

Dude, it still boils down to skill, no secret technique,

Randy is giving these good people hope and confidence to walk the streets, I don't think those MMA guys are lurking on the streets, they make their money in the ring not jumping people on the street.

So , its all good right, Randy makes a little money , they learn a little. You can't make it to complicated, its only a seminar.

Technique comes before skill. You won't develop much skill if your underlying technique is flawed.

The good techniques are easier to learn because they actually work.

That's great that they are teaching confidence. However, I'd hate to be the guy that had my confidence raised by learning flawed techniques.

Crappy techniques might work on untrained guy, but I'd rather be learning techniques that work against both the untrained, as well as those with some knowledge.

[LaRoux]

LaRoux:

So if Randy´s techinques doesn´t seem to work for you, can you give us a Wing Chun example of how to do it?

I think Wayfaring gave a couple of the basic principles you would need to use here.

[LaRoux]

i.e., back thrust might be be most powerful kick around many kicks, but if use at the wrong timing and a wrong opponent, you have a lousy kick then, but does that make a lousy kick technique?

Should we not see someone's technique and discuss on what and how and where it is appropriate to use then to condemn it to be bad?

That's fine and a reasonable request.

Let me replace any reference to the word "bad" that I might have used with the phrase "wrong for the situation in which he is demonstrating."

The timing, sequence, and technical demonstration of things he showed were definitely wrong for those situations.

[LaRoux]

To start forgive my English cause I´m Portuguese, and I´m a student of Sifu Randy Williams, and I´m a representative of CRCA in Portugal, LaRoux I´m some kind of sick to listen you allways talking about Sifu Randy in the way, he is bad in this and bad in that, why don´t you prove to all of us you are better and accept the challenge for a duel with Sifu Randy or with John?, maybe cause you have a big mouth and little balls, instead of putting videos of Sifu Randy ou have the chance to put a video fighting him or John, and that way you prove to all of us you are better that him, and please don´t evade my questions and answer directly to them, I think you are a coward, can ou prove me I´m wrong?

It's nothing personal against him. It's simply about inappropriate techniques being shown in the wrong situations.

I think Wayfaring said it best, so I will simply quote him:

Right. How long has he studied grappling? As that is what he is teaching there. Is he currently studying grappling somewhere? Is he ranked?

Who's attacking him? I'm asking about fundamental grappling flaws.

That RNC choke escape won't work. Meaning if Randy gave me that position and we did a contest with him trying that escape I'd tap him out or put him to sleep 10 times out of 10.

All of which says nothing negative about Randy's WCK ability and instruction or character or anything else.

[LaRoux]

From the mount and guard:

Randy Williams demonstrates wing chun ground techs

The guard sweep actually would be OK if he wasn't forgetting a key element there, which is trapping the sweeping side arm that most people will use for a base.

The escape from the mount will lead to a triangle or a complete face punching with your arm trapped. Its hardly ever a good idea to bring in one arm between the opponent's legs.

[wingchunIan]

................

[LFJ]

The escape from the mount will lead to a triangle or a complete face punching with your arm trapped. Its hardly ever a good idea to bring in one arm between the opponent's legs.

Triangle from the mount is a sweet move.

And what was the foot trap for? Usually that's to prevent them using that leg to post out when you roll them that way. He's reminding the guy to put his hook in on that side while allowing him to post out with the other leg? lol

[LaRoux]

And what was the foot trap for? Usually that's to prevent them using that leg to post out when you roll them that way. He's reminding the guy to put his hook in on that side while allowing him to post out with the other leg? lol

Good question. Maybe the "ranked" CRCA guys can explain what the heck was up with that and why anyone would do that.

[thedreamer7]

From the mount and guard:

Randy Williams demonstrates wing chun ground techs

The guard sweep actually would be OK if he wasn't forgetting a key element there, which is trapping the sweeping side arm that most people will use for a base.

The escape from the mount will lead to a triangle or a complete face punching with your arm trapped. Its hardly ever a good idea to bring in one arm between the opponent's legs.

From what I have seen on this youtube clip, he uses pressure more then touch, hence why he maybe explain the vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRYHOA_8aXA

[Frost]

From the mount and guard:

Randy Williams demonstrates wing chun ground techs

The guard sweep actually would be OK if he wasn't forgetting a key element there, which is trapping the sweeping side arm that most people will use for a base.

The escape from the mount will lead to a triangle or a complete face punching with your arm trapped. Its hardly ever a good idea to bring in one arm between the opponent's legs.

he also forgets to bring the guys weight foward in the sweep as well, as for the mount escape anyone fancy reaching between their attackers leg whislt getting pounded in the face from mount.....any takers???

seriously why try to reinvent the wheel??

[Wayfaring]

Wow - so apparently the thread I started where I spent all that time highlighting specifics of WCK and the ground game and pointing out fundamental differences between good and bad instruction got deleted.

Why?

That was valuable content. Sihing73 can you restore that thread? It's not fair to me or those honestly evaluating how to deal with ground aspects of the game while training WCK not to have that stuff available after I spent the time and expertise to post valuable content on it.