WCK and Ground Fighting

[LaRoux]

RW is not trying to duplicate BJJ, that system is great just the way it is. He is trying to improve and update WC to offer something in a newer age against new fighting techniques. What is the alternative, just let someone work you over with no answer at all. My guess is if other WC instructors offered RW a better way to do it without leaving the WC system he would be most receptive. One of the great things about RW is he has an open mind. Something I have not seen with some other martial arts instuctors.

The alternative would be to first learn the fundamentals of grappling.

[LaRoux]

If you think they are inferior that´s your problem not mine, how many of you try a technique in a real fight in the street? maybe you only try them in training or in competition, but in the streets the things are different, in the streets maybe somebody want to kill you and not just to win a trophy, in the streets the fights starts on your foot, and maybe, just mabe goes to the floor, but no one wants to be there, you want to know way? cause in the street the people have shoes to kick you and the floor is not soft like your gym so if you put me down to the floor maybe you hurt me, but for sure you are going to hurt you too, cause the streets floor is hard and not soft.

Been there, done that many times.

[LaRoux]

We are not there to convince anyone to do it our way, I already have the evidence I need to know that works great in the streets, if you like it the way you do it, fine, keep it.

I agree. These posts aren't for those of us who know these things aren't going to be that effective. Nor are they to convince the already convinced. They are to give information for those who may not understand the difference and are looking for something to expand their toolbox.

[LaRoux]

A couple of things come to mind. RW is not using BJJ but rather trying to find techniques that work within the WC frame work. He should be applauded for that in my opinion. RW is also not worried about using this in the MMA, this is not an MMA system. If you have some productive thoughts relative to using WC to help him out I'm sure he would consider it. Once again to RW's great credit he does have an open mind. He just wants to see if he can work this out within the WC framework. I would still be interested to know if any other WC instructors out there are also working on this?

The guys who should be applauded are the guys who go out and learn the basics and teach those basics as they are learning them, not to guys who aren't ready to be "innovating" and are simply making stuff up.

[LaRoux]

working on this. but I entered into it in reverse, by cross-training BJJ. what I've found so far is there are certain fundamentals on the ground that are different that you have to learn. if you don't, you could do the exact wrong thing in a situation easily.

hand fighting in nogi and grip fighting in gi to me how I do it are 100% WCK bridge in the entry and movements until I have a grip. then the purpose diverts from WCK - to shut down space and get to the ground.

what I find most translatable across the two is elbow position.

You are the person who will come up with actual innovations that make sense because you've put in the required work to develop strong grappling fundamentals.

[LaRoux]

My question has to do not with whether RW's techniques are valid or not (folks have already taken sides and I don't want to add to the fire :-) )... I'm more concerned with the "combination" of WC and BJJ" as a legitimate combatives method. For the folks who have significant experience in both, I'm curious how many folks have truly transitioned between the different style's techniques in an actual (as in "not MMA, not in class and not a demo") fight.

If you HAVE been in the thick of things, how did is REALLY work out? If you won, how? If you LOST, be honest and say "how." Was it because of the techniques, your skills or both (winning or losing)?

Thanks!

Carlos

You can get a pretty good idea of what this is like by watching the relatively few WC guys who are actually doing this (Alan Orr's guys and Sean Obasi come to mind offhand).

You will see that they generally use very strong grappling fundamentals.

[LaRoux]

You are correct. WC is not a technique based system. If all you know is the technique within the form you have one technique. If you understand the concepts and principals behind each technique within the forms you have a hundred techniques. Example would be Gum Sau. One can see it in the WC forms as a block. Knowing the concepts behind it suddenly you see it as not only a block but as a take over trap, retrap and a conversion press as well among other things.

WC may be a principle based system, but it is not a grappling principle based system. Trying to use WC principles in grappling makes about as much sense as does using boxing based principles in grappling.

[CRCAUSA]

An opinion coming from an admitted arm chair martial artist. Wonderful. As I said sometimes RW efforts to advance WC work and maybe sometimes there is a better way but one cannot criticize him for trying. And that isn't to say those practicing the various arts the same way they practiced 500 years ago is wrong either. If it works for them and they enjoy their system I say more power to them.

[LaRoux]

An opinion coming from an admitted arm chair martial artist. Wonderful. As I said sometimes RW efforts to advance WC work and maybe sometimes there is a better way but one cannot criticize him for trying. And that isn't to say those practicing the various arts the same way they practiced 500 years ago is wrong either. If it works for them and they enjoy their system I say more power to them.

Actually, I'm far from an armchair warrior, but that is neither here nor there.

What he can be criticized for is the way he is trying.

[WingChunNovice]

WC may be a principle based system, but it is not a grappling principle based system. Trying to use WC principles in grappling makes about as much sense as does using boxing based principles in grappling.

Angles, levels and physics do not change. Power principals can still be applied (torque, back up mass, marriage of gravity) for one example. Unless you work outside the realm of natural laws I would say MOST principles and concepts can be used in any situation.

MS

[CRCAUSA]

One other thought on RW. I have been through two other systems before this one and have been around a lot of really good teachers. I must admit RW has probably the most open mind of anyone I have met when it comes to WC. He has told us over and over that he does not object to those with rank in other systems teachning those systems along with CRCA WC in their schools. If one wants to learn BJJ, Kali, etc. he will support and encourage that. So it's not that RW objects to WC people learning BJJ he is just looking for a way to do the job with WC technique and I'm sure he is not the only one doing it. Seems like I saw W Cheung working on something like that also.

[Wayfaring]

I guess my idea if I go to the ground is to get back to my feet as quickly as possible. Even when I used to do Judo and competed I was known for being a very good thrower but lousy ground fighter. Just never did like the idea of being on the ground while someones friends could be standing around me doing other things while I was "wrestling" with their buddy.

One of the challenges with this approach is that getting back to your feet as quickly as possible actually can require some fundamental ground skills. Your average blue belt will be able to hold an untrained person down in side control or mount with technique such that they can't get to their feet, then advance the position, isolate a limb or the neck, and apply a submission.

Of course this isn't an all or nothing scenario. If you are bigger, stronger, more athletic than your attacker you can power or muscle your way up. One example of this is there's a clip floating around here somewhere of one of Phil Redmond's students Rashad playing around with Dale Frank - a Caique black belt in BJJ. Rashad does something athletic and gets to his feet from bottom.

But just know guys that in an average BJJ school, they will practice 3 min rounds of one person holding mount and the other trying to escape. Or side control. Or back. So they are live training how to hold you down. To me that means you should do that drill too and get enough instruction to succeed at it and get back to your feet.

[Wayfaring]

If you care more about fighting effectively than you do about being defending the honour of WC and the Shaolin temple, IMO you'll look at the most effective way to reach that goal, which IMO is to crosstrain in multiple arts.

Of course, but time and $$ prevent this in reality. I mean Graham's example of training 7-10 hrs WCK and playing league squash on other nights rather than being a gym rat and going to a BJJ class is probably more the norm than not. And that's a perfectly healthy thing to do.

So what to do?

The TKD mcdojos easily handle this by hiring a guy to teach a grappling class once a week, and many do affiliations.

But WCK is probably trained in the vast majority of situations in a small club environment. Not a lot of large mcdojos teaching WCK out there. So we need some more realistic recommendations for people.

[CRCAVA]

I totally agree with getting up off the ground is the best option for any striker. In my CRCA WC classes I teach takedown defense and stand up drills. This is done live... With resistance. Luckily for my academy we have a killer Jiu-Jitsu program. Many of my students train BJJ & WC. So the students that just train WC are having to practice there WC grappling techniques against my BJJ blue belts. Live training is the only way to really practice. We wear 6oz MMA safety sparring gloves to strike while we do this. My competition team competes a lot in BJJ & MMA competitions, I wish Chi Sau completions were more realistic with its rules... Who knows what the future my bring:-)

[LaRoux]

Angles, levels and physics do not change. Power principals can still be applied (torque, back up mass, marriage of gravity) for one example. Unless you work outside the realm of natural laws I would say MOST principles and concepts can be used in any situation.

MS

Angles, levels and physics may not change, but circumstances and applications do. The angles, levels, and physics of building a nuclear bunker are much different than those of building a helicopter.

Although you will find some crossover, many of the principles of grappling are completely different from the principles of striking. By the same token many of the principles of ground grappling are completely different than standing grappling.

Striking on the ground is also completely different than striking while standing.