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  1. #61
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    there is a communist modern wushu term in your "traditional shaolin kung fu". surely that needs no more repeating now?

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  2. #62
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    You just need to do more reading. The name appears in the oldest material across Songshan.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    you guys tried to explain some specfici app to single whip

  4. #64
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    Language is a virus

    You can't really fault Shaolin as being non-traditional because it has adopted modern terms (there are plenty of other places where you might fault Shaolin, and that's such a basic term). But more to the point, as Shaolin keeps spreading, it's language is changing. The most obvious example in my mind is the adoption of 'Enpi' in Shaolin vernacular, which first appeared in Shaolin Gong Fu – A Course in Traditional Forms to my knowledge, and has spread laterally. It's starting to fade now that that book series has become passe with the Abbot's new publications, but such is the case with language.
    Gene Ching
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  5. #65
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    Perhaps it's time for the Ass Documents?
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    Perhaps it's time for the Ass Documents?
    A reading from the Book of Armaments:

    Last edited by taai gihk yahn; 02-27-2013 at 02:51 PM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    A reading from the Book of Armaments:

    Just so we're very clear here, the number shall be 3.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    Just so we're very clear here, the number shall be 3.
    Five is right out!

  9. #69
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    Its a hideous monster.....

    Bring out the Holy Hand Grenade.....
    Mouth Boxers have not the testicular nor the spinal fortitude to be known.
    Hence they hide rather than be known as adults.

  10. #70
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    He's got huge, sharp-- he can leap about--

    look at the bones!

    Gene Ching
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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    look at the bones!

    you namby Scottish git...

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Miles View Post
    He is right. The movements are just the movements. The applications are certain once you know the name.
    That depends on the martial art. Not all TCMA work like this, where each movement is a definite "technique".

    If you look at Songshan Shaolin as an enormous system with thousands of boxing sets, and each set is full of hundreds of pre-planned hypothetical responses to hypothetical situations, you're seriously wasting your time!

    What is a reverse punch? Could be a knee break, a body check, a throw, an arm break, a strike to the heart or groin, a penetrating strike, a folding strike or a launching strike. Yes its all of those things and more, but once you have the name and the names of the other movements in the form you have context. With that context you can actually see what your system is.
    And you think a single name, whatever you call it, is going to make all of those potential applications clear? Not a chance. Most of the poetic names in Songshan Shaolin are visual descriptions of the actions. They must be, because in many movements your arms are performing two actions which are concepts applied separately and instinctively, not as planned responses to hypothetical situations which rely on knowing what your adversary is going to do!

    If you try to look at the visually descriptive name and extrapolate various potential "techniques" from it, you're missing the entire point. That's why it takes a qualified teacher, not just a wushu monk who makes up his own applications from reading the poems and lyrics, and then teaches sanda.

  13. #73
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    Concept vs Technique

    Here's Shi Dejian giving an example of using the actions of Xiaohongquan, including '5 flowers sit on mountain', 'slanting', and 'shrink body'.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR-7E5xXs4c

    You'll notice though, for each student he says "ni chu shou ba, suibian chu nage dou keyi" (you attack, whatever you like), because what he applies is concepts, not fixed techniques. He has them attack multiple times and responds differently each time depending on how they attack with different speed or movement, but he uses the same concept. That means the response is not going to look the same each time, because each live situation is unique (even though this is still just an explanation of concept against a single attack).

    This is something many people don't get, because they are sanda competitors who make up their own applications to a traditional fighting system without understanding its concepts & principles. This almost always results in interpreting the actions as pre-planned responses to a 'right straight punch' asked to be thrown in a certain manner by a compliant partner. How many hypothetical techniques do you need to deal with a straight punch? Without training instinctive concept-based response, you'll probably still get hit even with your hundreds of ways to deal with it.

    A good teacher should be able to demonstrate actions in this way, by just saying 'attack me', not by 'stand with that leg forward and do a straight punch with that arm and hold it out'.

    Tuizhang is a visual description for this reason. It's a structure that introduces principles like facing, combat range, punch structure, simultaneous attack & defense, etc. which can't be directly applied as fixed techniques. When a palm strike is used it is often referred as 'yingmianzhang' if to the face or 'taoleizhang' if to the ribs, but the function of the action is much more than that, hence the simple visual description of 'push palm'.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    This is something many people don't get, because they are sanda competitors who make up their own applications to a traditional fighting system without understanding its concepts & principles.
    a posture in a form has a main idea and few variations. this is fact, this is universal for chinese martial arts. your "my sifu taught different, i am special" act is bullsh1t. you got milked.


    shi dejian did NOT pull the variations out of his ass. he showed the main idea in all three postures in that video, dodging back, dodging to the side, and forcing close to the enemy. he then showed possible follow ups to these techniques, which do not deviate from the fist seed

    if you dont teach the codewords for a movement you can make up anything and pull stuff out of your ass, which is what your teacher did.


    the difference is shi dejian is never going be so oblivious, ignorant, and dizzy headed as to turn the application of a basic beginner straight punch into an awkward throw. for your average chinatown weekend warrior its ok, for you as a supposed "shaolin disciple", this is unacceptable and a mark of great shame.
    Last edited by bawang; 02-28-2013 at 03:29 AM.

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  15. #75
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    Shi Dejian is not my shifu but he's demonstrating the same understanding of the actions. He's demonstrating concepts, not fixed techniques and variations. Otherwise he'd have to tell his students how to attack to show the fixed technique responses. He just said "chu ba" (attack) and responded with the specific concept. Do you understand the definitions and differences between 'concept' and 'technique'? The art demonstrated is concept-based. You're trying to understand it as technique-based, which is simply incorrect.

    Edit: By the way, the footage of Shi Dejian just confirms what I've been taught in my lineage, and it actually works, without sanda. So I've no problem with an unexperienced person telling me I've been duped. lol
    Last edited by LFJ; 02-28-2013 at 04:05 AM.

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