2 questions

[JamesC]

First, does SS Shaolin teach to strike with the bottom three knuckles for punching?

Second question is a bit more involved. I'm curious about the parallels between two similar movements. One in SS and one in BSL.

I was watching a clip of Xiaohongquan today and there's a move that involves the practitioner bringing the arms to the chest, then rotating while throwing the arms out, one to punch and the other to(presumably) add more force to the strike. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E2JeUXQRa8 at 0:23 in that clip.

To me, it looks like this could have been the same movement you see in BSL Tan Tui at one time in the past. Perhaps an evolution over time?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI9dH62UpYs One of the opening moves at 0:05

If not, what is the purpose of this movement for each style? I understand there's a huge article on the comparisons of SS and BSL. Just curious about this movement in particularly, though.

[wenshu]

gong bu xiu xing (your xhq example) isn't a punch

[JamesC]

gong bu xiu xing (your xhq example) isn't a punch

Ok. Well what is it exactly?

[RenDaHai]

Hey James,

The technique is called XieXing or XieCeng. (Slanted shape)

It is the same technique in Shaolin and Tantui (and Taiji for that matter and almost every other style of Wushu) and it is almost always called the same name. It is one of the most common of all wushu techniques and you would be hard pressed to name a style that doesn't use it.

The technique is one of the most important hammers.

It leads with the elbow and strikes with the hand (can be with knuckles, with hammer, with palm with backfist and more).

The hand that swings to the outside does so to attack and strike through and/or push/pull the opponents hand away and/or for more power.

Generally in Song shan you will lead with the elbows then the hammer fists will chop outwards. The hands pull apart way from each other (ceng). So you can for example left foot foreward you can chop to his left side with the front hand then chop to his right with the rear in quick succession. But there are many many different uses for this move.

Usually when you are guarding with both hands together in KaoShou (handcuff technique) or other structure you suddenly pull the hands apart and strike clearing a path in the process.

TiDaShuaiNa, You Fang You Gong. (can be used in throws, qinna, strikes or blocks)

[GoldenBrain]

In our system of Sil-Lum we are taught to align the index and middle finger knuckles which are the two largest bones in the hand with the radius and ulna bones in the forearm wether striking with a vertical or reverse punch. Karate is the same way though they don't use the vertical punch as often as a reverse punch. If you strike with the bottom three as the lead then your hand is not inline with the forearm and you may be more likely to break one of the smaller bones in the hand. Of course there are other striking methods but this is the way I prefer.

Before I submitted this reply I had to go over to the heavy bag and let go with a few Phoenix Eye punches to verify something for myself and I find that it also aligns the same way as described above even though the contact point is on the middle bone of the index finger just below the knuckle.

Now go whale on that heavy bag!!!

[wenshu]

Ok. Well what is it exactly?

Think more "close quarters".

Dan Bian and Xie Xing are different techniques.

[bawang]

First, does SS Shaolin teach to strike with the bottom three knuckles for punching?

no. longfist strikes with top 2 knuckles, conditions all 5.

Second question is a bit more involved. I'm curious about the parallels between two similar movements. One in SS and one in BSL.

I was watching a clip of Xiaohongquan today and there's a move that involves the practitioner bringing the arms to the chest, then rotating while throwing the arms out, one to punch and the other to(presumably) add more force to the strike. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E2JeUXQRa8 at 0:23 in that clip.

To me, it looks like this could have been the same movement you see in BSL Tan Tui at one time in the past. Perhaps an evolution over time?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI9dH62UpYs One of the opening moves at 0:05

If not, what is the purpose of this movement for each style? I understand there's a huge article on the comparisons of SS and BSL. Just curious about this movement in particularly, though.

they are all the same technique, its called single whip, its the oldest, most basic posture of northern kung fu, the ancestor of the "lunge punch"

throwing other arm out is the ancestor of chambering, it means fully committed, telegraphed punch at full power, emphasizing muscle power, momentum, penetration.



its a haymaker and rarely used in fighting, used as a feint, or break rythym, because longfist forbids rhythm.

[GoldenBrain]

Here's another way to use single whip...


Attachment 7305

[bawang]

Here's another way to use single whip...


Attachment 7305

thanks for mentioning this technique. this is called single whip saves master, a different technique, but commonly gets brought up in tai chi, because taichi poosies think punching is external.


single whip is the traditional term for gong bu chongquan from modern wushu.


modern wushu uses obscure terms that describes body position, like gongbu push palm, ma bu lunge punch, etc. this creates language barriers.

for example, i learned xiaohongquan from a wushu guy, so to this day, i still dont know what the hell "gongbu push palm" really is.

[Lucas]

for example, i learned xiaohongquan from a wushu guy, so to this day, i still dont know what the hell "gongbu push palm" really is.

wtf is gongbu push palm?

[Kellen Bassette]

wtf is gongbu push palm?

Bawang don't know because he misplaced that document. Perhaps he left it with you?

[YouKnowWho]

taichi poosies think punching is external.

Taiji people think pushing is "internal" (I always put "internal" in "" because I don't believe this word has any true meaning). They don't know that upper body "pushing" should always be combined with lower body "hooking".

[LFJ]

no. longfist strikes with top 2 knuckles, conditions all 5.

A fair amount of Songshan Shaolin material is close-range combat. The range doesn't allow for that kind of punch. The elbows must be down to operate at close-range and enable simultaneous attack & defense. Hence, vertical fist, lower knuckles punching.

for example, i learned xiaohongquan from a wushu guy, so to this day, i still dont know what the hell "gongbu push palm" really is.

Gongbu Tuizhang is not just a technique, but a posture that introduces several concepts & principles of the system, including squared facing, equal reach, bent-arm range, punching structure, and deflections, etc.. That's why it is the most ubiquitous posture in Shaolin Hongquan, appearing at the opening of Xiaohongquan, and numerous times throughout. The basic punching structure comes from tuizhang (not over extended as in modern wushu), hence it is not called Xiaohongzhang, but Xiaohongquan. The fist is hidden in the palm.

[wenshu]

they are all the same technique, its called single whip

[bawang]

trust me bro

i kno dis

dont make me pull out documents out my ass