2 questions

[bawang]

Gongbu Tuizhang is not just a technique, but a posture that introduces several concepts & principles of the system, including squared facing, equal reach, bent-arm range, punching structure, and deflections, etc.. That's why it is the most ubiquitous posture in Shaolin Hongquan, appearing at the opening of Xiaohongquan, and numerous times throughout. The basic punching structure comes from tuizhang (not over extended as in modern wushu), hence it is not called Xiaohongzhang, but Xiaohongquan. The fist is hidden in the palm.

its not called gongbu tuizhang. thats a modern wushu term, and shaolin people use it to obscure the technique.

its probably tanmazhang, but unless i have the manual or get a real monk to tell me the fist poem i will never know.

[LFJ]

its not called gongbu tuizhang. thats a modern wushu term, and shaolin people use it to obscure the technique.

its probably tanmazhang, but unless i have the manual or get a real monk to tell me the fist poem i will never know.

Tuizhang is a standard term throughout Songshan, appearing in the oldest Rouquan material, but it's a bit of an irrelevancy because it is merely a descriptive name, as it is NOT meant to be understood as just a technique. There are many concepts derived from the action and structure. By the way, poems and form lyrics are separate works with different descriptions of the same actions.

[bawang]

Tuizhang is a standard term throughout Songshan, appearing in the oldest Rouquan material, but it's a bit of an irrelevancy because it is merely a descriptive name, as it is NOT meant to be understood as just a technique. There are many concepts derived from the action and structure. By the way, poems and form lyrics are separate works with different descriptions of the same actions.

push palm is very vague and ambiguous and describes a basic attack. to where? how? whats the setup and follow up? what is the core concept? is this an actual technique or just filler?

is this open the bow? dragon sends claw? testing palm? i dont know. this is why the name is removed, to mark that i am an outsider.

[LFJ]

push palm is very vague and ambiguous and describes a basic attack. to where? how? whats the setup and follow up? what is the core concept? is this an actual technique or just filler?

is this open the bow? dragon sends claw? testing palm? i dont know. this is why the name is removed, to mark that i am an outsider.

"Push palm" as I said is just a visual descriptive name of the action as it is done in the set, not its particular use. The concepts & principles introduced through its structure are in short as I described in the first post you responded to. Xiaohongquan as I learned it is not a collection of hypothetical applications.

[bawang]

"Push palm" as I said is just a visual descriptive name of the action as it is done in the set, not its particular use. The concepts & principles introduced through its structure are in short as I described in the first post you responded to. Xiaohongquan as I learned it is not a collection of hypothetical applications.

your description of the concept is not wrong. just that you and i dont actually know what its really called. the codeword. if you dont know the actual traditional codeword, it marks you as an outsider.

[LFJ]

I don't care. I can hit people with it.

[bawang]

the difference is, see, i train muay thai, you shave your head bald and tell people you are a shaolin monk.

this is your rice bowl, but your rice bowl is dirty.

[LFJ]

You're half right. I do prefer a shorter buzz cut. Never taken any precepts myself though.

[bawang]

your shifu told you the lunge punch is a throw. and you asking me why knowing names of techniques matter.

mute learning with a chinese guy pointing and grunting is not a good way to learn kung fu. you "shaolin" guys being lazy and not wanting to learn deeper, is why jamesc is asking for application of a lunge punch with no answers.

making epic mistakes like confusing a beginner reverse punch for a throw, is why nobody wants to learn shaolin kung fu to fight. its why shaolin monks themselves have to teach sanda.

[LFJ]

It's not a technique. That's the point you're missing. And I learned the concept and theory of the system in Chinese. The action is called "tuizhang" in the oldest material, and is merely a visual description. You can't fit all the concepts & principles in one name. You are looking to give it a name to apply a specific technique application to it, but that's completely incorrect thinking.

[LFJ]

making epic mistakes like confusing a beginner reverse punch for a throw, is why nobody wants to learn shaolin kung fu to fight. its why shaolin monks themselves have to teach sanda.

There is no such reverse punch. It's not Karate.

Unfortunately, that is the current state of Shaolin in most places. The problem is they try to apply specific techniques to every action, like you, resulting in hundreds of hypothetical responses that require knowing what your opponent is going to do. That's impractical thinking, won't work, and that is the reason they have to teach sanda. They don't understand the actual theory of the system.

[bawang]

There is no such reverse punch. It's not Karate.

Unfortunately, that is the current state of Shaolin in most places. The problem is they try to apply specific techniques to every action, like you, resulting in hundreds of hypothetical responses that require knowing what your opponent is going to do. That's impractical thinking, won't work, and that is the reason they have to teach sanda. They don't understand the actual theory of the system.

you guys tried to explain some specfici app to single whip, i came here and said its a concept.

you try to make push palm a complicated concept, im saying its a simple technique.

what you learned is all messed up because you dont understand what is important in tradition. to you, words is all bland and boring and irrelevant, while the form, the shape, the movement of kung fu is so exciting.



a traditional longfist codeword is absolutely final, because it is universal. once you learn the codewords you cant be deceived by shady teachers. push palm can be anything.

if you insisted on learning the traditional terms, then you could have cross referenced with others and realized your shifu was keeping you as a rice bowl.

[LFJ]

you guys tried to explain some specfici app to single whip, i came here and said its a concept.

When did I comment on single whip?

you try to make push palm a complicated concept, im saying its a simple technique.

Okay, well, you're wrong.

what you learned is all messed up because you dont understand what is important in tradition. to you, words is all bland and boring and irrelevant, while the form, the shape, the movement of kung fu is so exciting.

I do appreciate the value of the poems and lyrics and what insights they give, but at the end of the day, sure, what's important to me is whether I understand and can use it, and whether or not it works.

a traditional codeword is absolutely final, it is universal. once you learn the codewords you cant be deceived by shady teachers. push palm can be anything.

And yet you agree "single whip" is not a specific single technique. "Push palm" describes exactly what the action is, i.e. pushing your palm. If you think it is just a palm push in application, then what's wrong with the name "push palm".

Looking to give it a more concrete name and apply a specific single technique to it is incorrect thinking. A lot of what is contained within it cannot be directly applied as a technique, because it is introducing principles like facing and fighting range. These are ideas and strategies.

[bawang]

Looking to give it a more concrete name and apply a specific single technique to it is incorrect thinking. A lot of what is contained within it cannot be directly applied as a technique, because it is introducing principles like facing and fighting range. These are ideas and strategies.

its not about looking for a "more concrete name". the point is it does have a more specific name, but is withheld from you and i. just like many teach single whip as "mabu shuang chongquan"

knowledge is power, and if you know the traditional name of a technique/concept, you can cross reference with others. if you ccross reference outside your teacher, he cant deceive you.

gongbu tuizhang is a modern wushu term. popularity of terms mabu and gongbu comes from wushu. this means something is fishy.

[LFJ]

It depends on the action in question. Some names are visual descriptions, some poetically describe its function, etc.. In this case, it is not a single technique or concept. It is a basic structure which introduces a number of ideas which a good teacher should be able to elucidate. One specific name will not do to encompass its full potential, hence a visually descriptive name. Sometimes it is called the 'willow leaf palm', but that is no more indicative of a single technique and is just a more poetic name for the shape. Again, you will not find a specific name indicating a specific technique, because that is completely incorrect thinking. Surely that needs no more repeating now?