2 questions

[LFJ]

the difference is shi dejian is never going be so oblivious, ignorant, and dizzy headed as to turn the application of a basic beginner straight punch into an awkward throw.

We don't have such reverse punches in the system.

[David Jamieson]

I'm distressed that Python hijacks have no efficacy anymore.

Forsooth forsooth, we have all become old and irrelevant...

[pazman]

What's a reverse punch?

I've always read and heard "Shangbu tuizhang" as the name you guys are arguing over. There are other names, like you guys mentioned, based on the specific application, but "shangbu tuizhang" is less about a specific trick and more like training cue that teaches about structure and strategy. The name does sound simple compared to the other more poetic movement names in XHQ, but I've never heard otherwise, and I've studied 3 different versions of it.

[GeneChing]

I'm distressed that Python hijacks have no efficacy anymore.

Oh come on now. We had a good run with that, replete with pix. And actually, in a rare shining moment, we're having a topical discussion.

So getting back to it, one important consideration in this discussion is that lyrics, just like movements of any given form, are not set in stone. I dabbled with a comparison of xiaohongquan lyrics (which I posted on the Songshan Shaolin Lyrics: Xiaohongquan thread nearly 8 years ago) because I was amused at the discrepancies. But given what we know about Kung Fu transmission and Chinese whispers, it stands to reason that there would be variation in quanpu. Complicating matters more, and this is something that often jammed me back when I was doing quanpu translation for BSL lyrics (see BSL Lyrics:Movements and names) is that the same lyric can apply to two different moves. This often occurs to maintain a poetic structure. A lot of that poetry has faded sadly. The post CR documentation leans more towards basic descriptions (like gongbu push palm) over anything abstract. Just like the simplification of Chinese characters, that represents a certain clarity but also a loss of information. I broach this issue of simplification in my article The Fist that Obstructs, the Hand that Hinders in our MAR+APR 2013 issue, currently on the newsstands.

And now, to feast upon the lambs, and sloths, and carp, and anchovies, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats, and large...

[RenDaHai]

The name assumes prior knowledge of Shaolin.

You must know and understand the 'Shaolin TeDie' The Characteristics and Principles of Shaolin.

The Principle 'Tui Zhang Er Ru Dao' is applied in this situation.

'The Push palm is employed like a blade' --- as in it must cut.

Push is a bad name for it really. It Cuts upwards. If you do a splitting chop down. Now do exactly the opposite motion. Do this against a wall and strike out as you follow the arc. Remembering to cut up while striking in. It can strike with the blade of the palm, however secondary striking surfaces include the whole hand and the arm down to the elbow. Often used as a 'cuo zhang' 'rubbing' technique.

The surface you strike with morphs to the target with the front or back of the hand but generally includes the blade as the main surface.

The palm is employed differently to a fist, you can't just stick a palm on the end of a punch and call it a palm.


In the most ancient versions of XHQ the technique used is BanShou not TuiZhang.

YiLu XHQ uses mainly the front hand with TuiZhang while Erlu uses the rear.

TuiZhang is a type of palm that can be used in many ways and uses LiuYeXing (willow leaf shape).

Common variations are the PiXinZhang (heart splitting palm) which is the most commonly used by most people performing XHQ although it is not in the QuanPu for specific reasons. Because there is no set application in XHQ where as PiXinZhang is a specific manifestation of the technique. The TuiZhang is as much defensive as it is offensive. You Fang You Gong.


Dan Bian is not a throw.

[wenshu]

Dan Bian is not a throw.

Where the hell did this single whip is a throw shit come from?

[David Jamieson]

Where the hell did this single whip is a throw shit come from?

I never interpreted it as such, always as a deflect and strike.

[RenDaHai]

Where the hell did this single whip is a throw shit come from?

Dunno, was scan reading, saw something about dan bian, something about tui zhang.

On closer look, it comes from nowhere.

[Sima Rong]

Oh yes, questions and more questions.

Why is it called Horse Stance Single Whip (Ma Bu Dan Bian) anyway? What's with the SINGLE whip?
I can see the initial movements as an deflection/armbar/break, a stamp on the knee or leg. I'm not really sure what else to make of it yet, I've really just started. All I know is I'd rather not punch like that with the back arm shooting out at the moment. Seems like a waste of a good weapon.

Oh, and hi again all! Been busy with thesis, travelling and other things.

[Scott R. Brown]

Where the hell did this single whip is a throw shit come from?

Here's another way to use single whip...


]

There are chin na actions that are similar.

[GoldenBrain]

What's a reverse punch?

Reverse punch is a standard punch from a 45 degree stance. Chamber fist with palm up, punch out while turning the fist to palm down and make contact on the first two knuckles. Also, whichever hand is punching the opposite foot is forward in the stance.

[GoldenBrain]

There are chin na actions that are similar.

I love the single whip. There are so many ways to implement it. Some are...from the inner gate you can deflect then reverse or vertical punch to face/throat/mid section, or deflect then to the throat with fingers (palm up or shovel palm) or eagle claw to throat or palm to the face. From the outer gate, deflect and punch to head or ribs or liver or using the technique I posted with the image which can be used as mantis or just wrapping a hand around the face and pull them down.

I wouldn't call that last one a throw so much as a take down or possibly a sweep depending on how you use the leg and where/how you want them to land. Throws to me are more of a projection through the air where you loose the bridge or contact with the opponent.

[LFJ]

The palm is employed differently to a fist, you can't just stick a palm on the end of a punch and call it a palm.

I guess it depends on your lineage and how you learned. For me, tuizhang is the main structure for a majority of our weapons. The focus is on the structure of the arm, mainly the elbow. The hand can switch 'tools' for the job as needed. How you rotate the elbow and change the hand shape creates different weapons and functions for almost any situation. That's why it is the most ubiquitous action repeated throughout XHQ, to familiarize that structure.

In the video posted with Shi Dejian, he demonstrates a use of wuhua zuoshan and says it can change to a palm or a fist. Same goes for tuizhang, at least in my school, because it is a concept regarding elbow position and arm structure rather than a fixed hand technique.

RDH, you said you started in Wing Chun a long time ago. As you've also noted, it's basically Shaolin in the small frame. So if you recall, from the inside gate tuizhang can function like wu-sau (hushou) guarding with the outside of the hand/wrist/forearm. From the outside gate it can function like paak-sau (paishou) with the palm driving into the opponent, which is itself basically a vertical, elbow down punch with a different 'tool' on the end, performing simultaneous attack & defense when the focus is on the elbow cutting the line.

I guess it also depends on your lineage of Wing Chun, but these are all basically the same structure as tuizhang, and perform the same functions, with a very similar strategy as I've found.

[LFJ]

Here's a great example of the Wing Chun paak-sau and how it turns into the straight punch. It's just how we do the tuizhang. The focus is on the elbow cutting the line (close-range, simultaneous attack & defense), which can't be done with a horizontal, elbow up punch. Hence the punching structure is also in tuizhang, and is not like the reverse punch which isn't present in the system at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx0US23G-F8

Btw, every single Wing Chun 'sau' (arm action) is present in the first section or two of XHQ, at least in the version we do. Not to say WC came directly from Shaolin Hongquan, but all the structures and strategies are already found in XHQ.

[RenDaHai]

RDH, you said you started in Wing Chun a long time ago. As you've also noted, it's basically Shaolin in the small frame. So if you recall, from the inside gate tuizhang can function like wu-sau (hushou) guarding with the outside of the hand/wrist/forearm. From the outside gate it can function like paak-sau (paishou) with the palm driving into the opponent, which is itself basically a vertical, elbow down punch with a different 'tool' on the end, performing simultaneous attack & defense when the focus is on the elbow cutting the line.
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This is true. Exactly it is both Wu sao like and pak sao like. However it is a continuos movement. Tui zhang is not fire out straight then fire back. It is a circle (perpendicular to the chest) moving upwards then drawing back. In its returning motion it is Pak Sao or WuSao, in its firing motion it is JumSao and biusao (of sort). This is as a FangShou defense, as Gong, as an attack it has other manifestations. But they involve 'slicing' that is not striking directly into the surface but slicing along it while going in. Much like you don't hack with a knife, you slice along.

You can see this in jumsao with the sinking elbow which itself the forearm has slicing power.

You are correct in talking about the elbow. This is where it differs from the punch. The theory 'San Jie' three sections tells us a lot on different types of movements. Survice to say that a strike can't be locked in all sections because it will stop. Similarly it can't be relaxed in all sections because it will collapse. There are different structures formed by carefully choosing the relaxed and tense sections.

The palm is mobile from the elbow. The elbow controls it and allows it to change shape when it needs to. This is the real advantage of the palm. It is not fast or powerful but changeable.

I see what you mean, but the weapon TuiZhang is not so effective in striking directly forward. After using it like Paksao for example and firing foreward it would be best to change weapon to BanShou or BengSHou or QieZhang or PiZhang or PingMianSha or RenShou or QiangShou or CaShou or LengQuan (like WC punch). TuiZhang needs the slicing action to be a powerful technique.

XHQ ShangBuTuiZhang of course doesn't exclude any of the above techniques and uses many different palms within the form.