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Thread: 70's was a different MA era

  1. #1
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    70's was a different MA era

    I posted this on the black kung fu experience thread.

    And then it got me thinking....wanted to see what others thoughts were.

    I really like alot of the masters from this era. They seem to be cut from a different cloth. Alot of them were Vets who brought back their art from the Orient etc.

    And I think you can get a feel for that in the way they train, no games.

    Check out the Pete Siringano section - he is nailing Bob Long - the red head.

    I think in the main today, sadly if you ran classes at this intensity it would leave you with very few students, only those who really wanted it.

    Even though this is the stuff you actually need from a quality view point as a potential new student.

    Just putting it out there, thoughts?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V0NX2ILihg

  2. #2
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    All of my teachers opened up their schools in the '60s and early '70s. It was a good era because there was so much enthusiasm about the arts, yet it was still relatively hard to find schools. None of my teachers taught for profit. I think that was a major difference. Nothing wrong with teaching as a business but these guys taught because they were enthusiasts themselves and they weren't babysitters. They kept to hard traditional training.

    Now there are so many concerns about liability, catering to youngsters to pay the bills, rising costs for tournaments, etc.,.

    Some things, I think, are better now though. Improvements in sparring equipment and more exposure to different schools allow for better information and cross training.
    "Look, I'm only doing me job. I have to show you how to defend yourself against fresh fruit."

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  3. #3
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    I began training in the '70s, and I agree that the attitudes were a lot different in the MA. No whining or BS was ever tolerated. Also, people weren't sue-happy like today. But I do agree with a lot of what you say, jdhowland


    Of course, someone's inevitably going to say, "They weren't as tough as modern MMA, blah blah blah".

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post

    Of course, someone's inevitably going to say, "They weren't as tough as modern MMA, blah blah blah".
    Unfortunately a lot of the "old school" guys have been marginalized in the modern era. Sadly, nowadays, more of the guys with a "tough" mentality are likely to gravitate towards MMA simply because there's no place for them in many traditional "martial" arts schools.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    Unfortunately a lot of the "old school" guys have been marginalized in the modern era. Sadly, nowadays, more of the guys with a "tough" mentality are likely to gravitate towards MMA simply because there's no place for them in many traditional "martial" arts schools.
    That's a good point. MMA is a great thing, IMO. But it is sad that so many TMA schools must rely on kiddie classes to survive, and much of the ruggedness is gone from a lot of them.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    That's a good point. MMA is a great thing, IMO. But it is sad that so many TMA schools must rely on kiddie classes to survive, and much of the ruggedness is gone from a lot of them.
    It breaks my heart. I love TMA. I consider myself a traditionalist. But I like to fight; I often find myself with the MMA crowd because too many TMA guys don't want to train for real.

    I'm convinced the only thing MMA has on TMA is a willingness to do the real training you need for fighting. These methods came from TMA.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  7. #7
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    I had my commercial school from 1973. I still remember the following.

    - A guy walked into my school and asked, "Can you jump kick at the celling?"
    - A boxer came to my school and challenged me with boxing rule, no kick and no throw.
    - If you can't kick as good as Bruce Lee did, you won't have any students.
    - Back then, I sent my guys to fight Karate guys and TKD guys. Today, I send my guys to the MMA gym.
    http://johnswang.com

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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    It breaks my heart. I love TMA. I consider myself a traditionalist. But I like to fight; I often find myself with the MMA crowd because too many TMA guys don't want to train for real.

    I'm convinced the only thing MMA has on TMA is a willingness to do the real training you need for fighting. These methods came from TMA.

    i'm not so sure they came from tma. why was judo created? so guys could spar and practice at full speed safely. the traditional style had techniques used for breaking and killing that couldn't be used in live training situations.

    traditional karate masters gave funakoshi hell because he had his students sparring. traditional karate jutsu guys thought he was watering down the style. same with Korean styles. they may have done hard drilling - three star drills, live throwing, etc. but not sure how much in terms of hard sparring. seems like that was mainly wrestling styles and "sport ma" like judo, karate do, boxing, etc.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

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    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

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  9. #9
    I was in high school in the 1970s.

    There were so many clubs.

    Judo kendo shuai jiao kuo shu tkd karate fencing wrestling ---

    There was just me and not enough time for all.

    --

    Both Japanese and Chinese arts were rooted in Taiwan.

    --

    Chinese arts from mainlands especially mantis was so popular in kuo shu clubs.

    Japanese banned chinese arts during occupation till end of WWII

    --


  10. #10
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    The issue that many TMA that were based on striking had with sparring was that it wasn't full contact, that "pulled" and "controlled" sparring would take away from the "killer instinct" and water it down, the "kime" would be lost.
    Of course going out and actually fighting was far more "observed" than some people would have liked.
    It gave Karate a bad image to show that old school masters were *******s that went around beating up people or each other ( which they did a lot).
    The silliness on their part was the reluctance to embrace protective gear for sparring.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by SPJ View Post
    I was in high school in the 1970s.

    There were so many clubs.

    Judo kendo shuai jiao kuo shu tkd karate fencing wrestling ---

    There was just me and not enough time for all.

    --

    Both Japanese and Chinese arts were rooted in Taiwan.

    --

    Chinese arts from mainlands especially mantis was so popular in kuo shu clubs.

    Japanese banned chinese arts during occupation till end of WWII

    --


    to bad American schools aren't like that.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    The issue that many TMA that were based on striking had with sparring was that it wasn't full contact, that "pulled" and "controlled" sparring would take away from the "killer instinct" and water it down, the "kime" would be lost.
    Of course going out and actually fighting was far more "observed" than some people would have liked.
    It gave Karate a bad image to show that old school masters were *******s that went around beating up people or each other ( which they did a lot).
    The silliness on their part was the reluctance to embrace protective gear for sparring.
    lol, not all of them. you saw that vid of the wu taiji master and the white crane master. I don't think either of them had beaten up anyone. ever.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by SevenStar View Post
    lol, not all of them. you saw that vid of the wu taiji master and the white crane master. I don't think either of them had beaten up anyone. ever.
    LOL, Too true !
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by SevenStar View Post
    lol, not all of them. you saw that vid of the wu taiji master and the white crane master. I don't think either of them had beaten up anyone. ever.
    Yes, they sucked not everyone fought.

    There has been many cycles of combat focus and performance focus in TMA over the years. The Lei Tai was an ancient tradition in China. I've heard plenty of stories from Karate people involved in Dojo feuds during the 70's. Muay Thai has had a fight tradition for centuries and there's reason to believe it may have partly developed as an answer to Chinese arts.

    Combat has always been a part of TMA, as has performance. What matters is are you honest about what your focus is?
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette
    Muay Thai has had a fight tradition for centuries and there's reason to believe it may have partly developed as an answer to Chinese arts.
    people say Thai was influenced by immigrants from southern China. I doubt it tho. localized arts have a similar flavor. northern kung Fu looks similar. southern kung Fu has a similar look and characteristics. southern kung fu however looks nothing like Muay Thai. Thai looks like bando, golden boxing, bokator, pradal serey, etc. Muay Thai likely came from cambodia.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

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