70's was a different MA era

[Kellen Bassette]

people say Thai was influenced by immigrants from southern China. I doubt it tho. localized arts have a similar flavor. northern kung Fu looks similar. southern kung Fu has a similar look and characteristics. southern kung fu however looks nothing like Muay Thai. Thai looks like bando, golden boxing, bokator, pradal serey, etc. Muay Thai likely came from cambodia.

Many southern styles look like Muay Boran. Old Muay Thai has a lot in common with what we call "traditional" martial arts.

I've never heard any convincing evidence from any view point. But based on the appearance, the forms in Muay Boran, the fact that they used poems for naming techniques and other circumstantial evidence, I believe there was probably a Chinese connection. Of course there may not have been as well.

I would be more inclined to consider Burma than Cambodia for origins of Muay Thai.

[SevenStar]

Muay boran looks like the old kmher styles. look at bokator. it also looks alot like some forms of silat. these styles would have all originated from India.

[Kellen Bassette]

these styles would have all originated from India.

Is there any proof of that? We heard that about TCMA as well.....We can trace Japanese, Korean and Okinawan arts back to China. Is there any proof that Indo-Chinese arts come from India, or just folk stories to attempt to intertwine Indian religion into other aspects of non-Indian culture?

Come to think of it, I've seen very little empty hand Indian martial arts...can we look at IMA and see the connection to Indo-Chinese arts, the way it's obvious that Burmese, Thai, Lao and Cambodian arts are related????

[jdhowland]

Is there any proof of that?

No. No proof. Just speculation based on, as you noted, other cultural exchanges. In the case of martial arts I don't believe it was a matter of a single point of origin, just some technologies spreading and others arising independently out of similar circumstances. There has been a continuum of related cultures across Eurasia for millennia but that doesn't suggest a single point of origin.

[SevenStar]

Is there any proof of that? We heard that about TCMA as well.....We can trace Japanese, Korean and Okinawan arts back to China. Is there any proof that Indo-Chinese arts come from India, or just folk stories to attempt to intertwine Indian religion into other aspects of non-Indian culture?

Come to think of it, I've seen very little empty hand Indian martial arts...can we look at IMA and see the connection to Indo-Chinese arts, the way it's obvious that Burmese, Thai, Lao and Cambodian arts are related????

with this stuff there's rarely proof of anything, just as some say Japanese jujutsu had no Chinese influence and that out was developed by three physicians, and others day it came from China. much of the recorded Thai ma history was destroyed during war. as far as Indian arts, there are wrestling arts, striking arts and dances. what you'll see in them looks more like these styles than Chinese styles.

[sanjuro_ronin]

We need to understand that co-relation doesn't equal causation.
That said there is nothing new under the sun.

[David Jamieson]

Actually....

Dhyana entered China before mainstream buddhism got there.

Dhyana = Ch'an = Zen

Shaolin Kung Fu is buddhist.

Buddhism is Indian(Nepali) in origin.

Buddhism went mainstream in China around 500 CE but had been extant since 500 BCE

Does anyone think the other arms of practice never made it into China and elsewhere?

The earliest civilization known of comes from the Indus valley and was referred to as the Harrapan empire.

anyway, if one took the time to make the connections, they are indeed there to be made.

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1213153]?

The earliest civilization known of comes from the Indus valley and was referred to as the Harrapan empire.

QUOTE]

Good info but twenty years out of date. Civilization means living in cities and the oldest discovered (in Anatolia and the steppes of western Asia) are far older than Indus Valley civilization. A minor point but it shows that everything new and influential did not come out of the subcontinent (including Indo-European culture, itself). These settlements show that there was already a continuum of settled or semi-sedentary agrarian villages across Eurasia before the famous early civilizations began.

The reason I don't look for a point of origin for martial culture is that these folks were not geographically isolated and they traded with each other. There wasn't enough space on the map or completely forbidding topography to keep them from influencing each other.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Oldest evidence of civilization:
What is now modern day Turkey:
Gobekli Tepe

[Pork Chop]

I think it was the Tai people that emigrated from China to Thailand, not their martial arts.
I've seen it agreed upon that the Khmer are probably the origin for the southeast asian martial arts, but the Thais feel that they are the ones that perfected it - each region (even in Thailand) has their own particular take though. I see very little commonalities with east asian martial arts; in technique maybe, but the methodologies are night & day different.

The India connection might be pretty strong; however. Note that the Ram Muay/Wai Kru performed at the beginning of Muay Thai bouts depicts scenes from the Indian Ramayana. These myths don't play such a large part in China. Many traditional Muay Thai exercises & techniques reflect various yoga postures, many names are imported from Indian myths.

As far as the Harappan civilization not being the oldest - they were pretty sure of that back in the '60s, so 20 years might be generous.

[jdhowland]

.

As far as the Harappan civilization not being the oldest - they were pretty sure of that back in the '60s, so 20 years might be generous.

True. I just didn't want to sound demonstrative. You have to allow a couple of decades for the textbooks to catch up.

[Kellen Bassette]

I would like to actually see some empty hand IMA. I hear about wrestling, and striking, but never really see any. This is strange to me since India has such a long history; it seems if their martial tradition was so rich, more would be preserved. I feel like there should be more info and videos out there, perhaps there is and I just haven't found them yet. Still, there's plenty of info/videos from Burmese arts, where the history is far less known and the society far more closed than India...makes me wonder...

You see Kalaripayattu and various other weapon/theatrical styles but stuff that resembles Muay Thai, Kung Fu, Silat??? Please share the videos; I'm interested.

The idea that Cambodian arts originated from India, then gave birth to Thai, Lao, Burmese, ect, arts doesn't make sense to me from a geographical stand point. If you were to tell me Burmese arts originated from India then spread to Thailand, Laos and Cambodia; it would seem much more logical. Of course, martial arts don't necessarily spread in a straight line, trade, war and immigration come into play...but still, India to Cambodia then west? Doesn't seem probable 1000 years ago.

I suspect the IMA connection from martial folklore is more of an attempt to wed martial traditions with Indian religions that later migrated to these areas. It's just my suspicion, I have no proof; but thus far I've seen nothing to make me believe these arts are the least bit Indian.

[SevenStar]

look at Indian dance, and as chop noted, Yoga postures, the ram muay...that does not look Chinese. Muay Thai retained its popularity because it became a national sport. you don't hear much about bando, and before the 90s, you heard nothing about it. you never hear about golden boxing and most people have no clue that Cambodia even has martial arts, let alone can they name them. this being the case, it shouldn't seem odd that Indian arts were lost as well. I think a lot of people want to tie everything ma related to China, but the Chinese did not have a monopoly on war arts.

as far as the spreading goes, it may not have happened that way - but I'm pretty sure it didn't spread from China.

[Pork Chop]

True. I just didn't want to sound demonstrative. You have to allow a couple of decades for the textbooks to catch up.

Yeah, I've been noticing a confusing trend in Indian historical research though - people keep trying to push the dates back. Was watching a documentary on genetics research, tracking migration of people eastward. They mention the Keralans, how they are genetically very similar to the first people to leave Africa ~50,000 years ago, then they start talking about religious rites in Kerala, how those rites (may) predate formal language, and then they started talking about the Vedas. Very easy to get the wrong idea.
Another documentary claimed to have found the legendary home town of Krishna, underneath the ocean, thus an attempt to push dates back before 3000BCE.

There's been a lot of document research to see if the Upanishads & Bhagavat Gita even go back as far as claimed. Both have sections that date well into the Common Era.

You see Kalaripayattu and various other weapon/theatrical styles but stuff that resembles Muay Thai, Kung Fu, Silat??? Please share the videos; I'm interested.

I believe there is a youtube clip but it's been a while, let me see what I can do tonight if I have time. At the very least, the preparatory exercises for muay thai have a lot more in common with yoga than any TCMA.

The idea that Cambodian arts originated from India, then gave birth to Thai, Lao, Burmese, ect, arts doesn't make sense to me from a geographical stand point. If you were to tell me Burmese arts originated from India then spread to Thailand, Laos and Cambodia; it would seem much more logical. Of course, martial arts don't necessarily spread in a straight line, trade, war and immigration come into play...but still, India to Cambodia then west? Doesn't seem probable 1000 years ago.

You've got that backwards, the Tai people migrated from Taiwan, through south China, south through Vietnam, through Cambodia, and then west.
Military arts were picked up in Khmer, as was initial exposure to Indian culture..
When they hit the west, they picked up more Indian culture imported via Burma (some even migrated as far west as northern India).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Empire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahom_people

EDIT: re: forms in Muay Boran. There are many that wonder if this was a creation for the Ong Bak movie, because many traditional forms of Thai boxing do not in fact have forms. More common, instead, were "master techniques" (Mae Mai) - usually done with a partner. The "form" in the Ong Bak movie was really a collection of single techniques that may or may not have traditionally been done with a partner.

[SevenStar]

http://www.naturemagics.com/kerala-s...rts-kerala.jpg

http://nomadicyogasoul.files.wordpre...rtial_arts.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_4-J72Y4LjA...0/ABCD0001.JPG

now, look at these:

http://fightmash.com/wp-content/uplo...10/bokator.jpg

http://www.corepoweryoga.com/sites/d...our%20WIDE.jpg

http://0.static.wix.com/media/9d4cd3...8dedf5.jpg_512

http://yoga.prevention.com/iyogalife..._at_wall_1.jpg