Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 52

Thread: 70's was a different MA era

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Pork Chop View Post

    EDIT: re: forms in Muay Boran. There are many that wonder if this was a creation for the Ong Bak movie, because many traditional forms of Thai boxing do not in fact have forms. More common, instead, were "master techniques" (Mae Mai) - usually done with a partner. The "form" in the Ong Bak movie was really a collection of single techniques that may or may not have traditionally been done with a partner.
    I never learned forms in the old Thai that I was exposed to, but we did have flowery, happy yoga names, like cracking the coconut, which was an elbow to the head. the use of the 9 striking surfaces were the 9 flowers. most of my training was modern Muay Thai pre western boxing integration, but we were shown some older stuff as well
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Canada!
    Posts
    23,110
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Oldest evidence of civilization:
    What is now modern day Turkey:
    Gobekli Tepe
    Would you settle for oldest civilization that has writing available?

    Gobekli Tepe is interesting and there may well have been antediluvian civilizations, there is certainly a growing body of evidence to support that.

    But, the records shows the Harrapan Empire (Sumerians) still have it when it comes to writing, organizing, creating a political structure etc etc etc. That starts there so far as we are aware to this day.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Pork Chop View Post

    You've got that backwards, the Tai people migrated from Taiwan, through south China, south through Vietnam, through Cambodia, and then west.
    Military arts were picked up in Khmer, as was initial exposure to Indian culture..
    When they hit the west, they picked up more Indian culture imported via Burma
    I wasn't referring to the migration of the Tai people, I was talking about the speculated migration of Indian Martial Arts.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  4. #34
    Sure they look similar...that one pose is also used in Kung Fu, the "Priest" stance.

    First of all, any nation that has engaged in war has engaged in martial arts. Almost every ancient culture will have some sort of martial tradition. That being said, some are famous for it, some are not. The Greeks had martial arts, but they're not really known for widely practiced, complex, systematic martial arts.

    Most of the East Asian countries are. India supposedly is.

    My problem. India is the second most populous country in the world. It is an ancient culture with enormous history. Indian nationals are EVERYWHERE in the West. Australia, USA, U.K. ect...Now, we don't have nearly as many Filipino or Indonesian immigrants, in the States, as we do Indian, yet there's no shortage of their martial arts. There's plenty of interest in obscure martial arts. Why aren't IMA being taught?

    India has Bollywood and is in the know on the web. Where are the videos, the web pitches, the schools? Where are the empty hand Indian martial arts? Why are they so rare and obscure? When you do see one, why does it seem suspicious and made up? There's a billion Indians...seems like some of them would be interested in learning or at least profiting off these arts.

    On the other hand, Yoga is EVERYWHERE. There's no shortage of Indian culture out there in the rest of the world, but where are the martial arts? We're told the Malay, Burmese, Thai, Indonesian, Lao and Cambodian, heck even the Chinese arts came from India. We have thousands of their arts, but we don't have much to show for IMA. It just don't add up to me.

    It's true most people don't know anything about Cambodian, Lao, and Burmese arts.....but there's a ton more info about them than there is IMA and you can easily find clips, fights, histories, ect.

    It's just an opinion and I could be completely wrong; and am certainly open to any theories or facts; but when you really look at it...why did all these arts survive in other countries but not their parent country? Why do all these other countries have a far richer martial landscape than India? Why is so much of Indian culture preserved, but so little of their martial tradition?

    Sure there were/are IMA, but the more I think about it, the more I think the depth, influence and existence of IMA were WAYYYYY overstated.

    But I could be wrong.
    Last edited by Kellen Bassette; 02-21-2013 at 08:04 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  5. #35
    I'm rushed, can't reply in full, however, here are other Indian arts, since you mentioned you only know of one:

    kalariprayattu
    punjabi
    vajramushti
    mukki boxing
    gatka

    those are off memory, I'm sure there are more.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by SevenStar View Post
    I'm rushed, can't reply in full, however, here are other Indian arts, since you mentioned you only know of one:

    kalariprayattu
    punjabi
    vajramushti
    mukki boxing
    gatka

    those are off memory, I'm sure there are more.
    This is exactly what I mean. Most the stuff I find is theatrical weapon performance. I will say some of the kalariprayattu empty hand did resemble a performance version of Muay Boran, that's the only thing I've seen yet that has any resemblance. The vajramushti empty hand forms, look an awful lot like some southern kung fu forms...have to look at the age of that art...

    As far as I can tell from some quick searches, punjabi and gatka seem to be the same thing. Mukki Boxing has yet to yield me anything but some generic factoid paragraphs...still nothing to show me it's alive and well...

    It seems like the empty hand IMA are few and far between but all the East Asian countries have multitudes of TMA that are alive and well.

    Why do you think this is? Or do you think they are more common and intact; and for some odd reason not exposed to the West like so many other obscure arts have been?

    kalariprayattu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLLpjViFhlc
    punjabi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG8G7e5Hq6c
    vajramushti http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VpmuS3MXTg
    mukki boxing
    gatka http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85Cqrhlce3I
    Last edited by Kellen Bassette; 02-21-2013 at 09:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    IL
    Posts
    998
    Quote Originally Posted by SevenStar View Post
    people say Thai was influenced by immigrants from southern China. I doubt it tho. localized arts have a similar flavor. northern kung Fu looks similar. southern kung Fu has a similar look and characteristics. southern kung fu however looks nothing like Muay Thai. Thai looks like bando, golden boxing, bokator, pradal serey, etc. Muay Thai likely came from cambodia.
    You make a good point! Thailand was more accessible so it appeared that they were the inheritor of many 'village' arts when in fact it was Cambodia that provided the origin. With unsecured borders, many tribal people preferred the 'freedom' of Thailand so by default, Thailand came onto the scene.
    To my recollection, Bando has a Burmese background since that was the first time I was aware of its background!

  8. #38
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    This is exactly what I mean. Most the stuff I find is theatrical weapon performance. I will say some of the kalariprayattu empty hand did resemble a performance version of Muay Boran, that's the only thing I've seen yet that has any resemblance. The vajramushti empty hand forms, look an awful lot like some southern kung fu forms...have to look at the age of that art...

    As far as I can tell from some quick searches, punjabi and gatka seem to be the same thing. Mukki Boxing has yet to yield me anything but some generic factoid paragraphs...still nothing to show me it's alive and well...

    It seems like the empty hand IMA are few and far between but all the East Asian countries have multitudes of TMA that are alive and well.

    Why do you think this is? Or do you think they are more common and intact; and for some odd reason not exposed to the West like so many other obscure arts have been?

    kalariprayattu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLLpjViFhlc
    punjabi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG8G7e5Hq6c
    vajramushti http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VpmuS3MXTg
    mukki boxing
    gatka http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85Cqrhlce3I
    one of the pics I posted earlier was a teep kick. regardless, what's left is what's least. like I stated, the various Muay are dead as well, and the other Khmer arts I named are virtually unknown. the only traffic we know of what we call Muay boran is because someone is trying to preserve the old styles; Muay lon lon, mai mae, Muay lopburi, Muay chaya, etc are all extinct. perhaps what is left of the Indian arts is only dance and yoga. that wouldn't downplay the influence it had elsewhere before it died. there were hundreds of Japanese jujutsu styles. they died during the peace times as there was no longer a need for samurai. a few styles survived, but most did not.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  10. #40

    Indian Martial arts

    There is no question that the Indian sub continent has had rich traditions in the martial arts
    for thousands of years. And, Indian martial arts have very much influenced SE Asian martial arts.
    Indian metallurgy was far more advanced than that of Europe and provided the basis of steel weaponry used by the Saracens in the crusades and later influenced the development of Damascus steel and then
    Toledo and Sheffield steel and the Russian saber.. Even now many steel weapons and even the Marine sabers for some time were made in Indian foundries.The history of Indian martial weaponry is extensive.
    The crisis in Indian martial arts took place when the British Crown after the Indian Mutiny of 1857
    directly took over governance from the East India company. The Brits absorbed Indian martial groups-the Sikhs, the Raj puts, the Maharattas, the Gurkhas, the Baluchs, the Pathans into segregated regiments using one ethnic group against another. They outlawed most kinds of martial training and went after many
    anti English groups like the so called thugees. Then you have the decline of princely support for martial sports including India kusthi.
    China faced more economic imperialism than direct Euoropean rule so family pais flourished.
    Nevertheless there is still a lot of martial arts in India in the kalaris, akharas, some clubs, and groups.
    Kalari payattu, kusthi, Sikh gatkha, archery in Ladakh and Manipur, lathi, silamban stick fighting
    are still around-you just have to look for it.
    But martial arts has declined in China as well.More westerners than Chinese are interested in
    TCMA theses days.

  11. #41
    Thanks for the info you guys are putting up here Seven Star and Varjamusti...as I said, my suspicions aren't based on any fact or research...just what I've been exposed to so far in the martial arts world...it would be very intresting to see if any of these arts have maintained a fighting tradition, (like many of the Indo-China arts have.)
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by SevenStar View Post
    most of my training was modern Muay Thai pre western boxing integration, but we were shown some older stuff as well
    In your experience with "old" MT, did you find that there was an aversion to using the hook and uppercut?

    My apologies to all the old guys reminiscing about the good old days. It just occurred to me, that I have yet again played a major part in derailing another thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    36th Chamber
    Posts
    12,423
    You know what else was different in the 70s?

    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Fremont, CA, U.S.A.
    Posts
    47,946

    Indian Martial Arts

    We're running an article on Indian Martial Arts in our next issue (MAY+JUNE 2013) which is just about to go to press. Check back with us in a month. Until then, we do have a discussion thread on it here: Indian martial arts.

    Back OT, I'd venture to say every decade could be categorized as a different MA era. We've seen rapid change across the board with each decade over the last century+.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    In your experience with "old" MT, did you find that there was an aversion to using the hook and uppercut?

    My apologies to all the old guys reminiscing about the good old days. It just occurred to me, that I have yet again played a major part in derailing another thread.
    yeah, it was mainly straight punches. in mt you want to do as much damage as possible. why hook and uppercut when I can knee and elbow since they are the same fighting range? there are elbows and knees for every occasion - upward, downward, diagonal, hook, stabbing, jumping, spinning...
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •