Angles, Chum Kiu, the Blind Side, and Mike Tyson

[Wayfaring]

I know these are different topics, but look at this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB6F22feBiI

That float step to the angle is awesome. You guys got any thoughts on what we are developing in WCK facing that fits in here?

The guy that did this clip was one hell of an armchair quarterback if you ask me. And that's a definite compliment.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That was a great clip showing Tyson's foot work.
That footwork would not work ( as well) in WC because, well, Tyson's style is more "hung garish" than "wing chunish".
That said, the principles of it would and those are to position your centreline outside your opponents so that you can hit him with YOUR best shots while his best shots are limited.

[Vajramusti]

A good clip.
Opinions can vary on it's relevance for wing chun.
Expressing an opinion- not debating.


Of course Tyson is not doing wing chun but some wing chun folks can see/recognize some relevant principles..

1.
fairly square bodied and much of the time equally balanced
2 power can explode from either side

3. Chum kiu has an upper cut that can be developed.

A real tragedy that Tyson wasted his talents away.

[GlennR]

I know these are different topics, but look at this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB6F22feBiI

That float step to the angle is awesome. You guys got any thoughts on what we are developing in WCK facing that fits in here?

The guy that did this clip was one hell of an armchair quarterback if you ask me. And that's a definite compliment.

Yep, nice little clip there, hope he does more.

I guess you could say in WC way its a flanking move, though done at a broken bridge range more suited to boxing.

Problem with WC is when it steps to the side it loses power, Tyson on the other hand is using the step not only to evade and confuse his opponent but is also using the step to transfer weight to add power (lots of) to his hooks and uppercuts.

Personally, there is a basic concept of flanking you could associate, but taking into account the weight transfer and tools used (hooks/uppercuts) i think its a superficial comparison at best.

[Wayfaring]

again opinion here - but I just love how athletically Tyson gets to the flank position. the guy doing the clip was spot on in noticing that movement from his earlier career when training with Cus D'Amato, and its relative absence in his later fights.

watching it again - in boxing they get to the flank with a check hook. this is literally an artificial WCK bridge situation. the hook is thrown against the outside arm or outside of the body, and the intent is simply to provide a leverage point to propel the body more easily to the flanking position along with the step.

my mma team is known for this flanking position - and we are taught to get to it because every combo thrown ends with an angle step and pivot off the line and a double jab.

we do this in WCK with an angle step and chum kiu turn. the end flanking position we describe in terms of facing in HFY - jeui ying, and the footwork involved as wui ma jeui ying.

all in all my opinion is good fighters get to the angle, and looking at examples of that and how we do it in WCK.

[GlennR]

again opinion here - but I just love how athletically Tyson gets to the flank position. the guy doing the clip was spot on in noticing that movement from his earlier career when training with Cus D'Amato, and its relative absence in his later fights.

I think the word "athletically" is the key. Tyson bob-weave style combined with a lot of lateral footwork is taxing (compare it to what a Klitschko does) IMO opinion its a younger boxers style and hard to maintain as you get older. Frazier is another that comes to mind that peaked when he was young.

watching it again - in boxing they get to the flank with a check hook. this is literally an artificial WCK bridge situation. the hook is thrown against the outside arm or outside of the body, and the intent is simply to provide a leverage point to propel the body more easily to the flanking position along with the step.

Exactly, but they actively transfer weight on the turn, adding power that WC just doesnt have available.

my mma team is known for this flanking position - and we are taught to get to it because every combo thrown ends with an angle step and pivot off the line and a double jab.

we do this in WCK with an angle step and chum kiu turn. the end flanking position we describe in terms of facing in HFY - jeui ying, and the footwork involved as wui ma jeui ying.

We do exactly the same thing in regards to the jab. The beauty of Tyson is he could consistently do it with a hook as highlighted, those little adjustments in stance are a joy to watch... well done by the clip maker again

all in all my opinion is good fighters get to the angle, and looking at examples of that and how we do it in WCK.

Thats where WC ideas differ, personally id not be looking to flank, id do that if i have to

[Graham H]

3. Chum kiu has an upper cut that can be developed.

Joy

There is an action that is commonly mistaken for an uppercut in Chum Kiu.

Where and for what reason is there one in your system?

[Graham H]

Problem with WC is when it steps to the side it loses power.

It would be better if you said the "your" WC loses power because it steps to the side.

[Graham H]

adding power that WC just doesnt have available

.....that your WC doesn't have available. A lot of systems of WC do not have any power. I spent 8 years practicing those systems. They are not all like that Glenn nut generally I would agree with you.

[wingchunIan]

Yep, nice little clip there, hope he does more.

I guess you could say in WC way its a flanking move, though done at a broken bridge range more suited to boxing.

Problem with WC is when it steps to the side it loses power, Tyson on the other hand is using the step not only to evade and confuse his opponent but is also using the step to transfer weight to add power (lots of) to his hooks and uppercuts.

Personally, there is a basic concept of flanking you could associate, but taking into account the weight transfer and tools used (hooks/uppercuts) i think its a superficial comparison at best.

I'd disagree Glenn, a simple angled step followed by a sharp turn creates the angle and puts the hip (and hence body mass) into the shot (whether a punch, palm to the ribs / jaw / ear etc) giving plenty of power, of course all that said not many people on the planet hit as hard as Tyson in his prime

[Graham H]

This turning and not facing an opponent square is an important concept in Ving Tsun missing in a lot of lineages. It aslo means you have to only fight one weapon instead of two if utilsed correctly. That is not possible when people try to fight in Ving Tsun using SLT ideas.

There is a whole strategy for it and being a tactition is an important part of the system much like what is talked about in that video. That is boxing though not Ving Tsun but many parallels can be taken from Boxing as w whole. Its helped me out for sure.

Mike Tyson was awesome. My era and as Joy said, its a shame he wasted all those talents.

[GlennR]

I'd disagree Glenn, a simple angled step followed by a sharp turn creates the angle and puts the hip (and hence body mass) into the shot (whether a punch, palm to the ribs / jaw / ear etc) giving plenty of power, of course all that said not many people on the planet hit as hard as Tyson in his prime

I never said there wasnt power, just not as much as a boxer.

Pound for pound, they hit harder

[GlennR]

This turning and not facing an opponent square is an important concept in Ving Tsun missing in a lot of lineages. It aslo allows you to only fight one weapon instead of two. That is not possible when people try to fight in Ving Tsun using SLT ideas.

There is a whole strategy for it and being a tactition is an important part of the system much like what is talked about in that video. That is boxing though not Ving Tsun but many parallels can be taken from Boxing as w whole. Its helped me out for sure.

Mike Tyson was awesome. My era and as Joy said, its a shame he wasted all those talents.

Graham, if you stepped to the side, youd face and not turn?

[Graham H]

Graham, if you stepped to the side, youd face and not turn?

I never step to the side unless my sparring partner has moved first then I cut his way much like a boxer cuts off the ring. Chum Kiu teaches you a certain way of fighting that enables you to turn the opponent away from you and take away his ability to attack with the rear arm. As you are no longer facing them square on they must turn to try and hit you back. In this moment we intercept that strike and the opponent actually makes his own mistake and releases you to his other side where he will be faced with the same problem.

We are constantly removing ourselves from the direct firing line but still allowing ourselves to make contact with both attacking limbs.

Its a hard thing to explain Glenn but easy to show. I was not exposed to this strategy is previous VT lineages. It was one of the eye openeners for me.

Every action should attack the opponents attack unlike other systems such as the Ip Chun lineage where they are always stepping to the side or pivoting away. In my lineage we go in the opposite direction to Ip Chun

[Graham H]

Its good to see a video with somebody respecting Mike tysons tactics and be able to draw simularities to Ving Tsun but at the end of the day in the mid to late 80's Tyson would have knocked a dinosaur out, tactics or no tactics