Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 48

Thread: Buddha hand snake crane wing chun

  1. #16
    This whole thread has now descended into nonesense.
    1) Closed door system traditionally meant that it wasn't taught openly, not that it wasn't used. All arts once considered closed door were regularly tested by use in real fighting
    2) Closed door systems do not put videos on you tube nor do they routinely teach overweight foreigners.
    3) Wing Chun has now gone full circle from the days of believing all Wing Chun stemmed from Ip Man to today where alledgedly a new branch of previously unheard of Wing Chun is discovered every day. People are so eager to believe in long lost lineages that might yeild hidden secrets or so desperate for anything that supports the claims of their own newly discovered, until recently closed door ancient version of Wing Chun that they are more than happy to take any clip of anyone waving their arms about in shapes that vaguely (and I do mean vague) resemble Wing Chun and accept it as evidence of a previoulsy hidden lineage.
    A clever man learns from his mistakes but a truly wise man learns from the mistakes of others.


    Wing Chun kung fu in Redditch
    Worcestershire Wing Chun Kuen on facebook

  2. I agree with your first point,that is exactly what I have said differently.
    I beg to differ on your second point because in this day and age of the internet and with China opening its doors there are many so called 'closed door' systems that are now open to the public and yes they have used Youtube as a showcase,

    example: Xin Yi Liu He Quan was a closed style as far back as 2002,when its contents were speculated upon in the internet forums,now you have a whole plethora of videos on Youtube.
    If you go through Youtube,you will see MANY lineages of Wing Chun that were hitherto 'unknown',even one that was taught in the U.K (Red Boat Opera Wing Chun)!

    As for your comment on routinely teaching overweight foreigners,that is being very presumptious.I have learnt from Chinese masters who would be considered overweight but their skill level was another story.Look up Sam F S Chin,or even Bruce Frantzis an 'over weight' foreigner who was given complete Hsing yi/Bagua and Taiji lineages (I hold the 6th generation lineage of a Southern Mantis system and I may be considered as overweight!).

    Your third point does not make sense either,it was but natural for Wing Chun to have come so called 'full circle' as the system had many disseminators and lines apart from Yip Man's,and thanks to modern technological innovations many things that were previously unknown have come to light (in all aspects of life).

    I do agree on your part about people seeking long lost secrets,all what you need in Wing Chun is 'there' provided all the underlying principles and concepts are there in whatever form you learn it. Also one should not become insecure when one see's different interpretations!


    waving their arms about in shapes that vaguely (and I do mean vague) resemble Wing Chun
    Does this mean that your line of Wing Chun highly qualifies you to assess what another line is doing?
    Last edited by Pakua4581; 02-26-2013 at 04:23 AM.
    The "Old" Yang style of Taiji
    Hakka Southern Praying Mantis Kung Fu

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    New Jersey/NYC
    Posts
    856
    Quote Originally Posted by Pakua4581 View Post
    There is nothing 'closed door' about this,its a standard interpretation of Wing Chun principles put together in one place. The name Fut Sao may have to do with buddhist connotations associated with Wing Chun (maybe taken from the Sam Pai Fut section?).As for the Snake and Crane aspect,it is said that Wing Chun may be a marriage of Emei Snake with Fukchien Crane.

    Isnt there a Jong Kuen Form still taught somewhere in Hong Kong?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHCqmp7oQhU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8ZVvu6wlrk

    Perhaps this is an interpretation of one of the ancestors of this line who may have learnt different expressions of Wing Chun from different sources,amalgamated the understanding and then passed it on.

    As for "Closed door" systems being untested,are not most of what is available for study in this day and age once considered as 'closed door' and initially were in the hands of a few?

    Those who know how to apply what they know will apply what they know,plain and simple!

    The sifu in the clip do you know his lineage?
    http://www.facebook.com/sifumcilwrath
    http://www.youtube.com/user/sifumcilwrath



    There is no REAL secrets in Wing Chun, but because the forms are conceptual you have to know how to decipher the information..That's the secret..

  4. #19
    IMHO, by evidence we do have a clear view on the outline of wing Chun since 1850.

    There are six area which the outline cover, and the six areas are, physical and mind handling, breathing and qi handling, change of force and momentum handling.

    Via the signatures of these area, we can learn about different aspect of the particular lineage compare with the common denominator of the wing Chun 1850 reference.

    So, there is. No secret, no mystery, and it is actually pretty straightforward lay out. The issue is there are areas which the western world are not exposed to yet , thus, it has to take sometimes to get expose to.

    We know today, what is very likely, by evidence wing Chun kuen is a semiprivate art passed to the red boat within close family, then spread into the red boat opera uprising member who also the triad member since early 1800, then after 1855 the burning of the red boat opera fine Jade association, the single long set system was reorganized into the three sets system. Where the internal art was defocus but the combat applications are put on sport light. That is to use the art to vengeance the killed red boat opera members by the betrayers who sold them off to Qing gorvenment, who practice the long bridge southern art, which is very likely the Choy lee fut. this is not against CLF but due to the long term exposure of Choy lee fut to the public since 1840 to 1855, some insider betrayer were train in Choy lee fut. So, WCK capture center momentum is used as a bunker missile to penetrate right into them.

    By evidence, Wingchunkuen is not from shaolin temple, and the story of the burning of shaolin temple and how the elderly create the sets are actually telling the story of the burning of the fine jade red boat opera association in 1855, and the re organization of the single set system into the three sets system for the purpose of counter the betrayers , who is using the long bridge southern art which today we know it is extremely likely CLF. That is also the reason of wing Chun ner and CLF ner doesn't get along well after the 1855 incident. However, wing Chun and CLF are Allie at the begining of the uprising and still Allie at the end of the uprising.

    Also, in history of china in this era, we do know and have identify certain Qing commander who is in fact betrayer, who was first a hung mun member then switch side.

    Thus, via the signature of the six areas, history evidence....etc. we do know WCK , we can verify the likely of the lineage claims.

    We today know of wing Chun kuen by evidence and signatutes of these six areas, and also we do know the lack or further evolution of these six areas. With these the future evolution of WCK can be study.


    So, the value of new lineages found, if they are real red boat 1850 lineages, they will provide more signatures to complete or confirm the six areas. If they are not older lineages but modern evolution, their signatures in the six areas will indicate that. We do have this type of ability today.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 02-26-2013 at 09:29 AM.

  5. here is a more clearer version of the form:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQyVn_BhSwk

    A brief explanation:

    The form is just meant as an example of one of the 'ways' that the concepts from Sil Lien Tao and Chum Kil can be interpreted and combined in a flow.The main emphasis of this version of Wing Chun is to teach the practitioner to adapt and flow with the Wing Chun principles in a free and random manner,without any thought of pre-meditation (the Snake aspect).
    The Wooden Dummy carries on from this concept,as only the first two sections are presented in a formal manner in order to give the practitioner an idea on 'how' to use the dummy.The rest of the 'sections' have to be created randomly at the spur of the moment.

    This is from the teachings of the (late) Sifu Kiam (19?? to 2004) of Guangzhou.The system comes down from his father who learnt from 2 different Sifu's.

    Leung Jan or Chan Wah Sun do not figure as sources.

    I learnt this in 2000,prior to that I was training in the Leung Ting WT system.

    I do not train Wing Chun anymore nor do I wish to propagate it,the video was as a favor to an old friend who started learning the Yip Man lineage.I made it public for his sake.

    From my research,there is a lot of the Yuen Kay San methodology in the other three empty hand forms.

    If any one thinks that im just waving my hands around randomly or that ive learnt from a book....well,thats just their opinion,will not change any facts!

    I have kung fu brothers training and teaching around the world,so this really is not such a closed door system,more like a private backyard class of an intensely private man.

    I will respond fully to polite and genuine enquiries.
    The "Old" Yang style of Taiji
    Hakka Southern Praying Mantis Kung Fu

  6. #21
    IMHO, in my understanding, the snake aspect of the snake crane wing Chun is not the pre meditation but hand technics such as tan sau is a snake aspect.



    Quote Originally Posted by Pakua4581 View Post
    here is a more clearer version of the form:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQyVn_BhSwk

    A brief explanation:

    The form is just meant as an example of one of the 'ways' that the concepts from Sil Lien Tao and Chum Kil can be interpreted and combined in a flow.The main emphasis of this version of Wing Chun is to teach the practitioner to adapt and flow with the Wing Chun principles in a free and random manner,without any thought of pre-meditation (the Snake aspect).
    The Wooden Dummy carries on from this concept,as only the first two sections are presented in a formal manner in order to give the practitioner an idea on 'how' to use the dummy.The rest of the 'sections' have to be created randomly at the spur of the moment.

    This is from the teachings of the (late) Sifu Kiam (19?? to 2004) of Guangzhou.The system comes down from his father who learnt from 2 different Sifu's.

    Leung Jan or Chan Wah Sun do not figure as sources.

    I learnt this in 2000,prior to that I was training in the Leung Ting WT system.

    I do not train Wing Chun anymore nor do I wish to propagate it,the video was as a favor to an old friend who started learning the Yip Man lineage.I made it public for his sake.

    From my research,there is a lot of the Yuen Kay San methodology in the other three empty hand forms.

    If any one thinks that im just waving my hands around randomly or that ive learnt from a book....well,thats just their opinion,will not change any facts!

    I have kung fu brothers training and teaching around the world,so this really is not such a closed door system,more like a private backyard class of an intensely private man.

    I will respond fully to polite and genuine enquiries.

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Pakua4581 View Post
    I agree with your first point,that is exactly what I have said differently.
    I beg to differ on your second point because in this day and age of the internet and with China opening its doors there are many so called 'closed door' systems that are now open to the public and yes they have used Youtube as a showcase,

    example: Xin Yi Liu He Quan was a closed style as far back as 2002,when its contents were speculated upon in the internet forums,now you have a whole plethora of videos on Youtube.
    If you go through Youtube,you will see MANY lineages of Wing Chun that were hitherto 'unknown',even one that was taught in the U.K (Red Boat Opera Wing Chun)!

    As for your comment on routinely teaching overweight foreigners,that is being very presumptious.I have learnt from Chinese masters who would be considered overweight but their skill level was another story.Look up Sam F S Chin,or even Bruce Frantzis an 'over weight' foreigner who was given complete Hsing yi/Bagua and Taiji lineages (I hold the 6th generation lineage of a Southern Mantis system and I may be considered as overweight!).

    Your third point does not make sense either,it was but natural for Wing Chun to havek come so called 'full circle' as the system had many disseminators and lines apart from Yip Man's,and thanks to modern technological innovations many things that were previously unknown have come to light (in all aspects of life).

    I do agree on your part about people seeking long lost secrets,all what you need in Wing Chun is 'there' provided all the underlying principles and concepts are there in whatever form you learn it. Also one should not become insecure when one see's different interpretations!


    Does this mean that your line of Wing Chun highly qualifies you to assess what another line is doing?
    I would not put to much trust in these over weight outsiders who claim lineage.
    They are usually just trying to talk themselves up, instead of actually teaching something.
    If you ever listened to Kumar you will know what I am talking about, lots of I and me and not much else. Don't pay attention to self promoting blow hogs, it is usually lots of BS.

  8. #23
    IMHO, in my understanding, the snake aspect of the snake crane wing Chun is not the pre meditation but hand technics such as tan sau is a snake aspect.



    Quote Originally Posted by Pakua4581 View Post
    here is a more clearer version of the form:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQyVn_BhSwk

    A brief explanation:

    The form is just meant as an example of one of the 'ways' that the concepts from Sil Lien Tao and Chum Kil can be interpreted and combined in a flow.The main emphasis of this version of Wing Chun is to teach the practitioner to adapt and flow with the Wing Chun principles in a free and random manner,without any thought of pre-meditation (the Snake aspect).
    The Wooden Dummy carries on from this concept,as only the first two sections are presented in a formal manner in order to give the practitioner an idea on 'how' to use the dummy.The rest of the 'sections' have to be created randomly at the spur of the moment.

    This is from the teachings of the (late) Sifu Kiam (19?? to 2004) of Guangzhou.The system comes down from his father who learnt from 2 different Sifu's.

    Leung Jan or Chan Wah Sun do not figure as sources.

    I learnt this in 2000,prior to that I was training in the Leung Ting WT system.

    I do not train Wing Chun anymore nor do I wish to propagate it,the video was as a favor to an old friend who started learning the Yip Man lineage.I made it public for his sake.

    From my research,there is a lot of the Yuen Kay San methodology in the other three empty hand forms.

    If any one thinks that im just waving my hands around randomly or that ive learnt from a book....well,thats just their opinion,will not change any facts!

    I have kung fu brothers training and teaching around the world,so this really is not such a closed door system,more like a private backyard class of an intensely private man.

    I will respond fully to polite and genuine enquiries.

  9. Thank you for your input Hendrick,what you have said is also plays a part.
    Robinhood,my response was just an example to Wingchunian.
    I am not claiming any lineage as I have stated before Im not interested in Wing Chun.I stopped training this particular system in 2005.
    The "Old" Yang style of Taiji
    Hakka Southern Praying Mantis Kung Fu

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Pakua4581 View Post
    Thank you for your input Hendrick,what you have said is also plays a part.
    Robinhood,my response was just an example to Wingchunian.
    I am not claiming any lineage as I have stated before Im not interested in Wing Chun.I stopped training this particular system in 2005.
    There is a write up on snake crane wing Chun lineage basic technics by sifu Wayne Yung. If I found it I will post it for you who is interested.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    New Jersey/NYC
    Posts
    856
    Quote Originally Posted by Pakua4581 View Post
    here is a more clearer version of the form:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQyVn_BhSwk

    A brief explanation:

    The form is just meant as an example of one of the 'ways' that the concepts from Sil Lien Tao and Chum Kil can be interpreted and combined in a flow.The main emphasis of this version of Wing Chun is to teach the practitioner to adapt and flow with the Wing Chun principles in a free and random manner,without any thought of pre-meditation (the Snake aspect).
    The Wooden Dummy carries on from this concept,as only the first two sections are presented in a formal manner in order to give the practitioner an idea on 'how' to use the dummy.The rest of the 'sections' have to be created randomly at the spur of the moment.

    This is from the teachings of the (late) Sifu Kiam (19?? to 2004) of Guangzhou.The system comes down from his father who learnt from 2 different Sifu's.

    Leung Jan or Chan Wah Sun do not figure as sources.

    I learnt this in 2000,prior to that I was training in the Leung Ting WT system.

    I do not train Wing Chun anymore nor do I wish to propagate it,the video was as a favor to an old friend who started learning the Yip Man lineage.I made it public for his sake.

    From my research,there is a lot of the Yuen Kay San methodology in the other three empty hand forms.

    If any one thinks that im just waving my hands around randomly or that ive learnt from a book....well,thats just their opinion,will not change any facts!

    I have kung fu brothers training and teaching around the world,so this really is not such a closed door system,more like a private backyard class of an intensely private man.

    I will respond fully to polite and genuine enquiries.

    thank you for your information
    http://www.facebook.com/sifumcilwrath
    http://www.youtube.com/user/sifumcilwrath



    There is no REAL secrets in Wing Chun, but because the forms are conceptual you have to know how to decipher the information..That's the secret..

  12. #27
    here are Sifu Wayne Yung article on Snake Crane Wing Chun lineage cut to fit the down load size

  13. #28
    As we can see above, in the Red boat era or atleast with 1890 Snake Crane Wing Chun documentary, Tan Sau is a snake technic. Tong Kiu is a Crane technic. These are different technics with different applications. instead of many today called them Tan or High Tan. or simply get rid of the Tan but leave only High Tan.

    This also brought up the legend of Tan Sau Ng which is rised by Pan Nam and then endose by Ip Chun decade ago. So, which is the Tan Sau of Tan Sau Ng who claim to be the master of Tan Sau?


    if it is Tan sau as the snake hand above, that is the technology of Emei snake. if it is the Tong Kiu, it is actually the Zhao Yang of Fujian White Crane. Both Tan Sau existed in the pre 1900 Siu lin/Nim tau set from different red boat era WCK lineages.

    the Tan Sau above is located in the one tan three fook section. while the Tong Kiu or Zhao Yang is in the end of the Siu Lin/nim Tau set.


    Thus, technologically, based on the Red Boat era WCK technics and the content of Siu lin/nim tau set. the legend of Tan Sau Ng, doesnt hold. the above two technics, the Tong Kiu and the Tan Sau could be trace to both Fujian white Crane and Emei snake. but not Shao lin. none of the Shao Lin has this type of technology for the past 1000 years in the TCMA history.

    I would love to see any one could pin point which Shao Lin has this type of technology, if one know where. and open to accept it. however, in the mean time, we can trace these to emei and fujian. and via these, the legend of Tan Sau Ng doesnt hold. Tan Sau Ng is a Red boat opera member however the rest of the claim address by Pan Nam has no evidence to support.

    not to mention we now know, the split of single set system of WCK to the three set system happen in the 1855 era. and thus in 1850, WCK in the red boat is a single set system, as we could heard the story from different older lineages such as Leong Jan's and other lineages.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 02-26-2013 at 05:01 PM.

  14. #29
    I see very confused students

  15. This is not the system that ive learnt Hendrick,nor is the system related to Henry Leung.

    You can classify the moves as snake or crane origin,but that is true of all Wing Chun.
    You align yourself with what your opponent is doing and nullify an attack accordingly.
    The "Old" Yang style of Taiji
    Hakka Southern Praying Mantis Kung Fu

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •