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Thread: Fighitng in the "old days"

  1. #1

    Fighitng in the "old days"

    In October 1928 three Chinese generals, Zhang Zhi Jiang (张之江), Li Lie Jun (李烈鈞) and Li Jing Lin (李景林) organized the first public full contact competition in China. The purpose of the competition was to select qualified teachers for the newly founded Central Kuoshu Institute (中南國術館),

    Of course, many traditional masters did not compete because they believed their skills could only be proven in serious duels and not “sporting” contests. However, the event attracted hundreds of the best Chinese martial artists who participated in three separate divisions; (1) “boxing”, (2) weapons sparring ad (3) wrestling (aka Shuai Jiao).

    In the “boxing” division, competition was suspended after a few days due to the injuries. The event was held with very few rules, but more importantly without any gloves or protective gear. Like the early UFC’s many fighters injured their hands and legs, unaccustomed to actually striking the elbows and knees used to block. The last 12 contestants were not permitted to continue, the public excuse being the “fear of killing off some of the greatest masters of the time”. The overall winner was voted on by a jury of his peers!

    The next year a similar event was held in Hangzhou, China. This event was also organized by Li Jinglin, then acting as vice-dean of the Central Martial Arts Academy. This time there were 125 entrants for the “boxing” or “free fighting” (San Shou) competition which was held November 21-27. The event was very popular, the audiences every day numbered in the tens of thousands.

    The tournament had few rules, they were not allowed to attack the eyes, throat or groin – anyone breaching these rules was disqualified. However, the event also had a flaw in the rules, in the event of a draw BOTH contestants advanced to the next round. By the end of the first day, more than half the contests had ended in draws! The rules were quickly changed so that in the event of a draw both contestants were eliminated.

    With this, the competitors didn’t hold back and many people were hurt, mostly with head injuries. The judges’ committee instituted a new rule in response, stating that contestants were not allowed to continually attack the head! The history of Chinese martial arts fighting competitions is full of instances of poor organization, irrational rules, random rule changes and rules which defy logic and reality of combat.

    Zhao Daoxin was a disciple of Zhang Zhaodong and was famous in Tianjin’s martial arts community. Zhao was only 20 at the time and at the beginning of his martial arts career, yet managed to achieve 13th place. His notes on the competition included these observations;


    “Those ‘orthodox inheritors’ of traditional martial arts, regardless of whether they were lofty monks or local grandmasters, were either knocked out or scared out of the competition”

    Zhao also noted;


    “Even though, at registration, every competitor identified themselves as belonging to a traditional style, every one of them engaged in secret auxiliary combat training”

    By the 1920′s both Western boxing and Japanese Judo had found there way to China and had made a huge impact on many martial artists. However, due to nationalistic and style pride, many did not openly admit to it!

    Other examples of denial of reality manifested themselves at the event. The 2nd place winner, Chu Kao-Lou, openly admitted he also trained in Western boxing. One Taiji master complained that Chu’s fighting style was not using Chinese Martial Arts, to which Chu’s brother, Chu Kao-Chen, challenged the Taiji master. In respond, the Taiji master didn’t dare to accept that challenge.

    Other quotes regarding the event

    - 这次比赛没有看到高深的内功,没有发人于丈外的场面
    You don’t see high level internal power, and Faijin that send people flying 10 feet away in this tournament.

    - 太极打法毫无建树,四量难拨千斤
    The Taiji principle didn’t work well. 4 oz could not defeat 1000 lb.

    - 也就是说号称以巧取胜的中国功夫 实际上也是在跟人拚勇力比高大
    The taller, heavier, stronger guys won in that tournament.

    - 要学打擂台的拳术
    After this tournament, people wanted to learn the style that can be used on the Leitai.
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  2. #2
    Whenever I am about to get into a fight I always tell the bad guy (I am always the good guy, because I fight for truth, justice and the American Way!) not to hit me in the face.

    They laugh and say to me, this is a fight! Of course I am going to hit you in the face!

    I reply, it is easy to have that attitude when one is as ugly as you are, you have nothing to lose, but I am handsome and the women say so! Thus I always win a moral victory whether I win or lose the fight, because I am handsome and they are not, so either way I win!

    Step!

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    48,185

    For some reason...

    ...I now have the undeniable urge to hit Scott in the face. Who's with me?

    Nothing personal, Scott. This is a martial forum, after all.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    ...I now have the undeniable urge to hit Scott in the face. Who's with me?

    Nothing personal, Scott. This is a martial forum, after all.
    I knew someone would say that!

    And of course I have a reply, because I am a social commentator:

    You are just jealous because I am handsome! It is easy to not care when you have nothing to lose!

    It can be such a burden sometimes, being beautiful........ er....... I mean handsome!

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    ...I now have the undeniable urge to hit Scott in the face. Who's with me?

    Nothing personal, Scott. This is a martial forum, after all.
    I with you!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    I knew someone would say that!

    And of course I have a reply, because I am a social commentator:

    You are just jealous because I am handsome! It is easy to not care when you have nothing to lose!

    It can be such a burden sometimes, being beautiful........ er....... I mean handsome!
    Hey Scott, you have one of these to put on when you fight?


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    22,250
    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    In October 1928 three Chinese generals, Zhang Zhi Jiang (张之江), Li Lie Jun (李烈鈞) and Li Jing Lin (李景林) organized the first public full contact competition in China. The purpose of the competition was to select qualified teachers for the newly founded Central Kuoshu Institute (中南國術館),

    Of course, many traditional masters did not compete because they believed their skills could only be proven in serious duels and not “sporting” contests. However, the event attracted hundreds of the best Chinese martial artists who participated in three separate divisions; (1) “boxing”, (2) weapons sparring ad (3) wrestling (aka Shuai Jiao).

    In the “boxing” division, competition was suspended after a few days due to the injuries. The event was held with very few rules, but more importantly without any gloves or protective gear. Like the early UFC’s many fighters injured their hands and legs, unaccustomed to actually striking the elbows and knees used to block. The last 12 contestants were not permitted to continue, the public excuse being the “fear of killing off some of the greatest masters of the time”. The overall winner was voted on by a jury of his peers!

    The next year a similar event was held in Hangzhou, China. This event was also organized by Li Jinglin, then acting as vice-dean of the Central Martial Arts Academy. This time there were 125 entrants for the “boxing” or “free fighting” (San Shou) competition which was held November 21-27. The event was very popular, the audiences every day numbered in the tens of thousands.

    The tournament had few rules, they were not allowed to attack the eyes, throat or groin – anyone breaching these rules was disqualified. However, the event also had a flaw in the rules, in the event of a draw BOTH contestants advanced to the next round. By the end of the first day, more than half the contests had ended in draws! The rules were quickly changed so that in the event of a draw both contestants were eliminated.

    With this, the competitors didn’t hold back and many people were hurt, mostly with head injuries. The judges’ committee instituted a new rule in response, stating that contestants were not allowed to continually attack the head! The history of Chinese martial arts fighting competitions is full of instances of poor organization, irrational rules, random rule changes and rules which defy logic and reality of combat.

    Zhao Daoxin was a disciple of Zhang Zhaodong and was famous in Tianjin’s martial arts community. Zhao was only 20 at the time and at the beginning of his martial arts career, yet managed to achieve 13th place. His notes on the competition included these observations;


    “Those ‘orthodox inheritors’ of traditional martial arts, regardless of whether they were lofty monks or local grandmasters, were either knocked out or scared out of the competition”

    Zhao also noted;


    “Even though, at registration, every competitor identified themselves as belonging to a traditional style, every one of them engaged in secret auxiliary combat training”

    By the 1920′s both Western boxing and Japanese Judo had found there way to China and had made a huge impact on many martial artists. However, due to nationalistic and style pride, many did not openly admit to it!

    Other examples of denial of reality manifested themselves at the event. The 2nd place winner, Chu Kao-Lou, openly admitted he also trained in Western boxing. One Taiji master complained that Chu’s fighting style was not using Chinese Martial Arts, to which Chu’s brother, Chu Kao-Chen, challenged the Taiji master. In respond, the Taiji master didn’t dare to accept that challenge.

    Other quotes regarding the event

    - 这次比赛没有看到高深的内功,没有发人于丈外的场面
    You don’t see high level internal power, and Faijin that send people flying 10 feet away in this tournament.

    - 太极打法毫无建树,四量难拨千斤
    The Taiji principle didn’t work well. 4 oz could not defeat 1000 lb.

    - 也就是说号称以巧取胜的中国功夫 实际上也是在跟人拚勇力比高大
    The taller, heavier, stronger guys won in that tournament.

    - 要学打擂台的拳术
    After this tournament, people wanted to learn the style that can be used on the Leitai.
    Classic !!
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    In October 1928 three Chinese generals, Zhang Zhi Jiang (张之江), Li Lie Jun (李烈鈞) and Li Jing Lin (李景林) organized the first public full contact competition in China. The purpose of the competition was to select qualified teachers for the newly founded Central Kuoshu Institute (中南國術館),

    Of course, many traditional masters did not compete because they believed their skills could only be proven in serious duels and not “sporting” contests. However, the event attracted hundreds of the best Chinese martial artists who participated in three separate divisions; (1) “boxing”, (2) weapons sparring ad (3) wrestling (aka Shuai Jiao).

    In the “boxing” division, competition was suspended after a few days due to the injuries. The event was held with very few rules, but more importantly without any gloves or protective gear. Like the early UFC’s many fighters injured their hands and legs, unaccustomed to actually striking the elbows and knees used to block. The last 12 contestants were not permitted to continue, the public excuse being the “fear of killing off some of the greatest masters of the time”. The overall winner was voted on by a jury of his peers!

    The next year a similar event was held in Hangzhou, China. This event was also organized by Li Jinglin, then acting as vice-dean of the Central Martial Arts Academy. This time there were 125 entrants for the “boxing” or “free fighting” (San Shou) competition which was held November 21-27. The event was very popular, the audiences every day numbered in the tens of thousands.

    The tournament had few rules, they were not allowed to attack the eyes, throat or groin – anyone breaching these rules was disqualified. However, the event also had a flaw in the rules, in the event of a draw BOTH contestants advanced to the next round. By the end of the first day, more than half the contests had ended in draws! The rules were quickly changed so that in the event of a draw both contestants were eliminated.

    With this, the competitors didn’t hold back and many people were hurt, mostly with head injuries. The judges’ committee instituted a new rule in response, stating that contestants were not allowed to continually attack the head! The history of Chinese martial arts fighting competitions is full of instances of poor organization, irrational rules, random rule changes and rules which defy logic and reality of combat.

    Zhao Daoxin was a disciple of Zhang Zhaodong and was famous in Tianjin’s martial arts community. Zhao was only 20 at the time and at the beginning of his martial arts career, yet managed to achieve 13th place. His notes on the competition included these observations;


    “Those ‘orthodox inheritors’ of traditional martial arts, regardless of whether they were lofty monks or local grandmasters, were either knocked out or scared out of the competition”

    Zhao also noted;


    “Even though, at registration, every competitor identified themselves as belonging to a traditional style, every one of them engaged in secret auxiliary combat training”

    By the 1920′s both Western boxing and Japanese Judo had found there way to China and had made a huge impact on many martial artists. However, due to nationalistic and style pride, many did not openly admit to it!

    Other examples of denial of reality manifested themselves at the event. The 2nd place winner, Chu Kao-Lou, openly admitted he also trained in Western boxing. One Taiji master complained that Chu’s fighting style was not using Chinese Martial Arts, to which Chu’s brother, Chu Kao-Chen, challenged the Taiji master. In respond, the Taiji master didn’t dare to accept that challenge.

    Other quotes regarding the event

    - 这次比赛没有看到高深的内功,没有发人于丈外的场面
    You don’t see high level internal power, and Faijin that send people flying 10 feet away in this tournament.

    - 太极打法毫无建树,四量难拨千斤
    The Taiji principle didn’t work well. 4 oz could not defeat 1000 lb.

    - 也就是说号称以巧取胜的中国功夫 实际上也是在跟人拚勇力比高大
    The taller, heavier, stronger guys won in that tournament.

    - 要学打擂台的拳术
    After this tournament, people wanted to learn the style that can be used on the Leitai.
    What's your point ?, strong defeats weak ?, that's not an art, there is art out there, you just need to find it, but it might not like you, so then that might make it just that much harder for you to find it.

    Good Luck

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    ...I now have the undeniable urge to hit Scott in the face. Who's with me?

    Nothing personal, Scott. This is a martial forum, after all.
    You just know you look like a villain. Work that ****!

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Robinhood View Post
    What's your point ?, strong defeats weak ?, that's not an art, there is art out there, you just need to find it, but it might not like you, so then that might make it just that much harder for you to find it.

    Good Luck
    Art doesn't matter when a grandma with a .38 makes it a moot point!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    You just know you look like a villain. Work that ****!
    Khaaaaaaaaaannnn!!!!!!

    I mean.......

    Geeeeeeeeeeeene!

    Hmmm, loses something in the translation!

  11. #11
    Killing masters is the only way to be the best fighter. If your goal is to be hardcore, you kinda need to be a dick about it.


    Hardcore is tearing out throats and skull ****ing your competition. Not deflecting their strikes and making them say uncle.

    Being a beast isn't the only way to achieve martial excellence, but if we want to be honest, the beasts usually win.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Syn7 View Post
    Killing masters is the only way to be the best fighter. If your goal is to be hardcore, you kinda need to be a dick about it.


    Hardcore is tearing out throats and skull ****ing your competition. Not deflecting their strikes and making them say uncle.

    Being a beast isn't the only way to achieve martial excellence, but if we want to be honest, the beasts usually win.
    Or the geek with a gun can be a wake for call for the guy who thinks being a beast is where its at, then calling "UNCLE" all of a sudden becomes a viable option.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    Other quotes regarding the event

    - 这次比赛没有看到高深的内功,没有发人于丈外的场面
    You don’t see high level internal power, and Faijin that send people flying 10 feet away in this tournament.

    - 太极打法毫无建树,四量难拨千斤
    The Taiji principle didn’t work well. 4 oz could not defeat 1000 lb.

    - 也就是说号称以巧取胜的中国功夫 实际上也是在跟人拚勇力比高大
    The taller, heavier, stronger guys won in that tournament.

    - 要学打擂台的拳术
    After this tournament, people wanted to learn the style that can be used on the Leitai.
    I was the "other".
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
    Less opinion -> less argument
    No opinion -> no argument

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Canada!
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    Here's a question.

    Are the TCMA failings of the 20's and the 50's even relevant now?
    Why are the same examples used over and over again?

    Why are the same tactics and strategies used to diminish one line of martial arts over another?

    Old man Wu and Chan Hak Fu were not fighters. That's plain to see.

    So, does any of that apply to the here and now of your training? Most everyone here has seen boxing, wrestling, mma in some format or another.

    If you know all these things are out there, why on earth would you continue doing Kung Fu if it was anything Like what Dave here says it is?

    Do you not spar in your gwoon? Do you not do drills? Do you not use resistence training and do strength and stamina development?

    Your school or club is legitimize as a fighting school if it consistently fronts fighters into venues. That's a simple thing to figure out and if you want that, you can fin places to go get that with ever more ease nowadays.

    Now, what if you are interested in Ch'an? What if you are interested in teh sets and forms and qigongs? Then what does all the fighting matter to you?

    If you are an older practictioner, I'm gonna say that I doubt you fight with any seriousness or intensity and probably do some sparring for the heck of it now and then, but likely don't go hard and full blast, because that's kind of dumb to do without a goal to do it for.

    So what then? Why do people think Kung fu is originally about fighting? It's not.
    I think some people want to make it that so they can continue to take shots at all teh esoteric stuff that goes on the side or so they can poke fun at the dramatic performance wu shu clubs (which by the way, most "fighters" cannot do what they do an vice versa)

    Kung Fu is holistic development and cultivation of a human being. If you think it's juts martial art, then your understanding is limited at best from what I understand of it and that's literally dozen of years, several teachers, volumes of books and a lot of hitting an being hit. Probably a similar experience to many guys here.

    I just don't go for this limited understanding pigeon holing of kung fu into some kind of glorified kickboxing status.

    Kung Fu is for personal development on a lot fo other levels beyond physicality. If not, WTF are you doing meditating, go run some track. Put that sword down! What are you doing? You don't need that sword to fight etc etc etc.

    Blanketing all kung fu under the viewpoint that "it's supposed to be for fighting" is limiting and limited in scope and that isn't what Kung Fu IS.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    Or the geek with a gun can be a wake for call for the guy who thinks being a beast is where its at, then calling "UNCLE" all of a sudden becomes a viable option.
    Being a beast means shooting first. A gun may HELP even odds but is not always an equalizer against others who actually use them.

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