Stance Training

[Kellen Bassette]

I know many people who claim to be progressive are vehemently opposed to static stance training. There seems to be a consensus that it is a useless training method. I do have some questions and reservations, however.

Argument: Stance training does not build leg strength.

Question: When someone who has never done stance training attempts to hold a stance, they typically cannot do it for 30 seconds. After a while of training they can do it for 1 minute, then 2, then 5. How is this phenomenon possible if there wasn't some strengthening of certain muscles?

Argument: Stance training builds muscles, but only those necessary to hold that particular stance; in that specific shape. Stance training can only help you hold that particular stance longer, nothing more.

Question: I find it hard to believe that these muscles only serve one specific function, i.e. holding Ma Bu. They don't have any other uses? Whenever you do any kind of new exercise, you will have sore muscles you don't normally notice. If I run and lift weights and do aerobics everyday, then one day decide to swim 100 laps, I'm going to feel a whole new world of sore muscles. It seems to me strengthening these different groups must benefit your overall strength. Is this incorrect?

My other problem with the above argument is that it seems to make an assumption that you're only training one shape. For instance, you only train horse stance. If you train 10 different stances, your using all different muscles and angles. It seems to me that I would then be working a whole lot of different muscle groups and that should, in theory, be beneficial to my overall leg strength. Why would this not be the case?

Argument: After 2 minutes of holding a static stance there is no additional benefit.

Question: So is it beneficial to hold the stance for 2 minutes as opposed to 15?

Argument: Stance training has no direct benefit to a fighter.

Question: Putting aside mental toughness and rooting, some stances make for good stretches. Gung Bu and Pu Bu, for instance. These same stances are often trained as stretches outside the martial arts world. Some other stances are great for balance, I would consider the cat stance and the various versions of one footed stances to be helpful in maintaining balance and developing sensitivity in the ankle, to help regain compromised balance. I feel like this skill is very beneficial to a fighter. Is there no benefit to the stretching and balancing practice either?

[18elders]

the stance training also trains your proper alignment. i am shocked to see how many martial artists stances are incorrect. You need a good teacher who can show you the correct and incorrect alignment and demonstrate the difference to you.
if you do your forms in low stances it will develop leg strength so if you can move well in low stances you will be a lot quicker in a higher fighting stance.

beside the physical training, one of the major parts is the mental training, if you cannot overcome the pain in holding a stance, how can you be a true fighter? you have to be able to push your body mentally.

[MightyB]

I'll defer to this:

Do as you want, f*ck what others think.

[Kellen Bassette]

I'll defer to this:

Do as you want, f*ck what others think.

I'm not opposed to modern methods or more efficient training...I just feel like we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater on this.

[MightyB]

I'm not opposed to modern methods or more efficient training...I just feel like we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater on this.

hear you there brother. I do specific arm patterns with weights as in the way that it's been done for hundreds of years. I think it works and it helps me to keep my rock'n bod... so f*ck the haters.

[Frost]

Stances build endurance which is specific for that position they do not build maximum strength (past a basic level which can be build much quicker with other methods anyway)
Strength is both general and sports specific, the problem is general strength is build quicker faster and better with other methods, as is sports specific strength
Yes there is benefit to balance and stretch work BUT how much benefit and whether it can be built in a better way should be the question we ask ourselves
Train what you like BUT don’t ignore the secience and just rely on what others in the past did

[SevenStar]

the stance training also trains your proper alignment. i am shocked to see how many martial artists stances are incorrect. You need a good teacher who can show you the correct and incorrect alignment and demonstrate the difference to you.
if you do your forms in low stances it will develop leg strength so if you can move well in low stances you will be a lot quicker in a higher fighting stance.

beside the physical training, one of the major parts is the mental training, if you cannot overcome the pain in holding a stance, how can you be a true fighter? you have to be able to push your body mentally.

I agree with your points, but stance training isn't necessary for those things. boxers and wrestlers don't stance train, and their pain tolerance is pretty high. also, they both move very fast.

it's just a different training methodology. it isn't required, just another means to a similar end.

[SevenStar]

Argument: Stance training does not build leg strength.

Question: When someone who has never done stance training attempts to hold a stance, they typically cannot do it for 30 seconds. After a while of training they can do it for 1 minute, then 2, then 5. How is this phenomenon possible if there wasn't some strengthening of certain muscles?

it is a muscular endurance exercise. just as doing 100 push ups is. there is limited strengthening if the muscle is untrained. after that period, you ate building endurance, not strength. such us the case with any high rep exercise our isometric exercise held for long periods of time.

Argument: Stance training builds muscles, but only those necessary to hold that particular stance; in that specific shape. Stance training can only help you hold that particular stance longer, nothing more.

Question: I find it hard to believe that these muscles only serve one specific function, i.e. holding Ma Bu. They don't have any other uses? Whenever you do any kind of new exercise, you will have sore muscles you don't normally notice. If I run and lift weights and do aerobics everyday, then one day decide to swim 100 laps, I'm going to feel a whole new world of sore muscles. It seems to me strengthening these different groups must benefit your overall strength. Is this incorrect?

this is the nature of isometric exercises - they don't work through a range of motion, so you only get benefit in the positron being held. a squat works through a range of motion; ma bu is static, this you aren't improving throughout an entire squat motion.

My other problem with the above argument is that it seems to make an assumption that you're only training one shape. For instance, you only train horse stance. If you train 10 different stances, your using all different muscles and angles. It seems to me that I would then be working a whole lot of different muscle groups and that should, in theory, be beneficial to my overall leg strength. Why would this not be the case?

when you kick, does only one part of your leg move? no. it's a whole body movement. what you described isolates motions - the very same reason we say bodybuilding is inefficient for ma training - your body functions as a unit, so to train it in isolated quadrants is not as effective for improving ma performance as say, power lifting, which works the body as a unit.

Argument: After 2 minutes of holding a static stance there is no additional benefit.

Question: So is it beneficial to hold the stance for 2 minutes as opposed to 15?

it has a benefit, but that benefit is not strength; it's endurance.

Argument: Stance training has no direct benefit to a fighter.

Question: Putting aside mental toughness and rooting, some stances make for good stretches. Gung Bu and Pu Bu, for instance. These same stances are often trained as stretches outside the martial arts world. Some other stances are great for balance, I would consider the cat stance and the various versions of one footed stances to be helpful in maintaining balance and developing sensitivity in the ankle, to help regain compromised balance. I feel like this skill is very beneficial to a fighter. Is there no benefit to the stretching and balancing practice either?

you don't need formal stance training for that. gung bu is indeed a great stretch, but a person doesn't have to know it is a stance, and never needs to hold that stretch longer than two minutes. stances are great for throwing. judo guys use gung bu, ma bu, sou pan bu and jin ji du li regularly, but they have no idea that they are even doing them. they are used in throwing and transitions. the stance isn't taught at all and the stances are never named.

[Kellen Bassette]

it is a muscular endurance exercise. just as doing 100 push ups is. there is limited strengthening if the muscle is untrained. after that period, you ate building endurance, not strength. such us the case with any high rep exercise our isometric exercise held for long periods of time.

Wouldn't the same hold true then for high reps of weight lifting as well?

[Robinhood]

Wouldn't the same hold true then for high reps of weight lifting as well?

Well from my view, the reason is lost in modern times, the whole idea of staying in a stance a long time, is to be able to stay there efficiently, what that means if you stay long enough you will learn to hold yourself there with intention and your muscles will be relaxed. Something along that line, to long for muscles , find other stuff to hold you there.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Stance training serves a purpose.
How you do it and why will define that purpose.
I have limited time to train so I no longer bother with stance training ( in the hold the stance in a static way for a long period of time).
There are better ways to develop endurance, flexibility and "rooting".
That said, stance training does indeed help develop certain "intangibles" when you are starting off.
It develops a great structural awareness of whatever stance you are holding.

[SevenStar]

Well from my view, the reason is lost in modern times, the whole idea of staying in a stance a long time, is to be able to stay there efficiently, what that means if you stay long enough you will learn to hold yourself there with intention and your muscles will be relaxed. Something along that line, to long for muscles , find other stuff to hold you there.

this is one of those tcma-isms...punch without using your muscles, hold yourself there with intention, etc. how can you be using your muscles without actually using them?

[YouKnowWho]

how can you be using your muscles without actually using them?

People may say that we should use bone and tendon instead. Can we control our body in such a way that we can distinguish "tendon" from "muscle"? May be others can but I know that I can't.

From my Google about "What's the difference between tendon and muscle", I got the following:

Muscles work to move bones the way the brain tells them to. Tendons connect muscles to the bone to make this happen.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_th...e_and_a_tendon

Muscles contract to facilitate movement. Tendons attach muscles to bones. Ligaments attach bones to other bones.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_th...es_and_tendons

[Robinhood]

this is one of those tcma-isms...punch without using your muscles, hold yourself there with intention, etc. how can you be using your muscles without actually using them?

I think it has something to do with those sheathing layers that hold everything in its place. Wear out the muscles , and then figure out what's left working.

[Frost]

Wouldn't the same hold true then for high reps of weight lifting as well?

yes and high reps arent good for strength building either but for endurance