Stance Training

[SevenStar]

Like flipping the tire? I think people like this one so much because it's cool.

this is actually great for sumo wrestling.

[Kellen Bassette]

the speed bag is to teach you to keep your hands up and how to hit a moving target. no it isn't a necessity, and not all boxers use out. why? it doesn't transfer to ring skill, as you don't hit the speed bag the same way that you punch. a much better tool is t he double end bag.

That's pretty much my point. It's not the best tool, but it's not bad for you either. It's a traditional training method that serves it's purpose, when other methods could also serve the same purpose.

Kind of like stance training to TCMA.

[SevenStar]

Like flipping the tire? I think people like this one so much because it's cool.

this is actually great for sumo wrestling. exercises like that force the body to work as a unit. however, it is VERY specific to sumo.

[Kellen Bassette]

this is actually great for sumo wrestling.

It's probably great for a lot of things. But you could probably replicate the exercise without requiring such a large space to work or store a huge tractor tire. But then some other methods may not be as cool/fun.

[SevenStar]

That's pretty much my point. It's not the best tool, but it's not bad for you either. It's a traditional training method that serves it's purpose, when other methods could also serve the same purpose.

Kind of like stance training to TCMA.

I never disagreed with that. like I said a few posts ago, it's a different means to a similar end. the difference is that you gotta call a spade a spade. but because of years of calling a spade a kwan dao, people think stance training is for building leg strength, and it's not.

[Kellen Bassette]

I never disagreed with that. like I said a few posts ago, it's a different means to a similar end. the difference is that you gotta call a spade a spade. but because of years of calling a spade a kwa. dao, people think stance training is for building leg strength, and it's not.

I got you, just adding my 2 cents for clarification and posterity.

Not being hip to the sport science, I actually just always assumed that stance training was for building leg strength, (amongst other purposes,) because it sure felt like it.

[SevenStar]

It's probably great for a lot of things. But you could probably replicate the exercise without requiring such a large space to work or store a huge tractor tire. But then some other methods may not be as cool/fun.

no, not great for sumo, specific to it. unintentionally it mimics the sumo starting stance, and pushing the tire over mimics the tsuppari push / slap.

trying the exercise with something other than a tire still requires something big and heavy.

[Kellen Bassette]

If I remember right I think you said you we're out of Nashville? Do they have a sumo school there or are you training on your own??? Just curious...

[SevenStar]

If I remember right I think you said you we're out of Nashville? Do they have a sumo school there or are you training on your own??? Just curious...

Memphis. yeah, we've got a group here. this school teaches Muay Thai, judo, bjj, sumo and submission wrestling.

[Kellen Bassette]

That's pretty cool...you certainly don't see much Sumo around, probably a pretty good fit with those other arts, when you think of it.

[SevenStar]

it's growing slowly. they've been having competitions in California for at least 15 years. this year there are also competitions in Memphis, Kansas and a few other cities. it fits with mma well. it's fast and hard, the grappling is basically judo with no gi and there is strength training and conditioning of striking surfaces as well.

[Robinhood]

this is one of those tcma-isms...punch without using your muscles, hold yourself there with intention, etc. how can you be using your muscles without actually using them?

I think it has something to do with those sheathing layers that hold everything in its place. Wear out the muscles , and then figure out what's left working.

[Lucas]

Stance training, such as the static versions, has a diminishing return effect. When you have a beginner, stance training has a serious impact. They learn proper stance, gain new endurance/strength, develop dedication to the new practice, and so on. This is for specific static training. At a certain point into your training, you don't (IMO) really need static stance training any longer. You're going to get enough static benefit from training in and of itself. IE: Drills, drills, drills, form.

This is strictly from a combat perspective. If you're talking health, longevity, old age, rehabilitation, internal meditation, qigong, etc. then static training has more specific approaches.

I firmly believe static stance training has its place and purpose when you begin Chinese martial arts.

[Robinhood]

nope, sorry; doesn't work like that at all - muscles don't get "worn out" to the degree that they stop working unless u r talking about muscle failure due to fatigue; fascia / non-contractile connective tissue does function out of tensegrrity principle which certainly goes a long way to explain why u can have the perception of "effortless" delivery, but the muscles are still involved;

if you are standing or doing anything while on two feet, muscles are working in some capacity; end of story; of course, how the muscles work, in terms of synergistic firing sequences, agonist / antagonist harmonization, coordination with respiration, CT and GRF, that can be a wide continuum, at one end of which is the various so-called 'internal" skills;

as far as fascia / CT "holding everything in place", it's one way of looking at it, but it's really not the full story - whole body continuity / transference of forces also another thing, but there is a lot of talk about CT being a conduit for "information" on a biochemical / cell signaling level - lots of interesting research going on regarding this system...

Thanks, I knew would chime in and give better technical out look on some of the physical aspects, ya fatigue would be a better description of muscles giving way.

I think the slow approach is easier than the fatigue method.

[IronFist]

I know many people who claim to be progressive are vehemently opposed to static stance training. There seems to be a consensus that it is a useless training method. I do have some questions and reservations, however.

Argument: Stance training does not build leg strength.

Question: When someone who has never done stance training attempts to hold a stance, they typically cannot do it for 30 seconds. After a while of training they can do it for 1 minute, then 2, then 5. How is this phenomenon possible if there wasn't some strengthening of certain muscles?

They are gaining endurance, not strength.

Their raw strength does not increase (past the first minute or two of training).

In other words, the maximum amount of tension their muscles can generate does not increase.

Argument: Stance training builds muscles, but only those necessary to hold that particular stance; in that specific shape. Stance training can only help you hold that particular stance longer, nothing more.

Question: I find it hard to believe that these muscles only serve one specific function, i.e. holding Ma Bu. They don't have any other uses? Whenever you do any kind of new exercise, you will have sore muscles you don't normally notice. If I run and lift weights and do aerobics everyday, then one day decide to swim 100 laps, I'm going to feel a whole new world of sore muscles. It seems to me strengthening these different groups must benefit your overall strength. Is this incorrect?

Muscle soreness is not indicative of a productive workout, only of muscles doing something they're not used to doing. It doesn't mean it was an intelligent use of those muscles.

Argument: After 2 minutes of holding a static stance there is no additional benefit.

Question: So is it beneficial to hold the stance for 2 minutes as opposed to 15?

After 2 minutes you no longer gain strength, and those strength gains in the first 2 minutes really only apply to untrained athletes. A weight lifter who increases from a 30 second stance to a 2 minute stance probably won't have gained any strength.

Obviously after 2 minutes you're still gaining muscular endurance as evidenced by the fact that you are increasing the amount of time you can hold a stance.

Argument: Stance training has no direct benefit to a fighter.

Question: Putting aside mental toughness and rooting, some stances make for good stretches. Gung Bu and Pu Bu, for instance. These same stances are often trained as stretches outside the martial arts world. Some other stances are great for balance, I would consider the cat stance and the various versions of one footed stances to be helpful in maintaining balance and developing sensitivity in the ankle, to help regain compromised balance. I feel like this skill is very beneficial to a fighter. Is there no benefit to the stretching and balancing practice either?

How is stance training a stretch? It works the muscles in a position that is nowhere near the limit of flexibility for most people.

Disclaimer: I didn't read any other posts in this thread. Maybe this has already been said.

But hey, if you enjoy stance training, then go for it. It definitely benefits traditional martial arts practice which does a lot of stance holding. And it's better than not doing any leg exercises.