Stance Training

[SevenStar]

How is stance training a stretch? It works the muscles in a position that is nowhere near the limit of flexibility for most people.

gung by is used as a stretch. ma bu can be as well if the hips are tight. shuai chiao has some static stances that stretch the hamstrings

Disclaimer: I didn't read any other posts in this thread.

same old ironfist!

[Lucas]

you can total turn SevenStar into a stretch too. badumcha!

[Lucas]

Oh and don't forget this stance!

[GeneChing]

That was my fav line from Forbidden Kingdom.

That being said, I use Horse Stance applications every day. I take a dump every day. Sometimes more.

It even works in the street.

[Kellen Bassette]

Muscle soreness is not indicative of a productive workout, only of muscles doing something they're not used to doing. It doesn't mean it was an intelligent use of those muscles.

It may not be indicative of an intelligent use of your training time, but certainly you must know whenever you do a new style workout, that you have never done before, you have soreness in muscles you normally don't. I don't think it's a stretch to say that what happened was you worked out muscles you normally don't.

How is stance training a stretch? It works the muscles in a position that is nowhere near the limit of flexibility for most people.

As I mentioned, Gung Bu and Pu Bu are used as stretches. In martial arts as stances; but also in various aerobic workouts and sports. They aren't intentionally working a stance, but they are certainly doing the same thing. Horse stance isn't the only stance.

But hey, if you enjoy stance training, then go for it. It definitely benefits traditional martial arts practice which does a lot of stance holding. And it's better than not doing any leg exercises.

I'm just trying to find a balance between using stance work in a beneficial way and not taking it to the point of diminishing returns. I kind of agree with Lucas that it's much more beneficial to a beginner than to someone who has been around a while. But I also feel working stances does help your rooting, adjusting to different situations, defending take downs, (not by holding the stance, but by the ability to transition smoothly), ect.

I do appreciate your input though.

[IronFist]

Your body gets better at what you do and worse at what you don't do.

If you do stance training your body gets better at holding muscle contractions for time in specific angles.

If you lift weights that gradually get heavier over time* (periodization), your muscles eventually becomes capable of generating more tension and lifting more weight (you get stronger).

Your body does not become capable of generating more tension if you do stance training because there is no increase of resistance and therefore nothing for your body to adapt to (beyond the first 2 minutes or so for an untrained individual).

If you lift weights that gradually get heavier over time, your body does not get better at holding muscle contractions for time in specific angles because you are not holding muscle contractions for time in specific angles.

Stronger muscles are useful for things like kicking harder, grappling with an opponent (yes, I know using too much strength is bad, but sometimes you have to brute force it), and picking up heavy boxes.

Being able to hold a contraction at a specific angle for a period of time is useful for things like holding stances and doing TCMA training and forms.

Your training should be based on your goals. If you do a lot of TMA type stuff then stance training should be part of your training program. Just don't be under the mistaken assumption that it's developing things that it's not, like maximal strength.

*I greatly over simplified this concept, and I mean with a proper strength training program

[IronFist]

It may not be indicative of an intelligent use of your training time, but certainly you must know whenever you do a new style workout, that you have never done before, you have soreness in muscles you normally don't. I don't think it's a stretch to say that what happened was you worked out muscles you normally don't.

Yes, it means you worked out your muscles in a new way.

But not that it was a good way.

People get caught up in changing their workouts every few weeks to "keep their muscles guessing" and they use the increase in soreness as an indicator of that.

You can do a stupid workout that doesn't help you at all and still be sore the next day Take a powerlifter who can bench 350 pounds and have him do sets of flat dumbbell presses to failure with 15 pound dumbbells. He'll probably knock out dozens and dozens of reps and be super sore the next day, but was that helpful to him? No.

As I mentioned, Gung Bu and Pu Bu are used as stretches. In martial arts as stances; but also in various aerobic workouts and sports. They aren't intentionally working a stance, but they are certainly doing the same thing. Horse stance isn't the only stance.

Fair enough.

I'm just trying to find a balance between using stance work in a beneficial way and not taking it to the point of diminishing returns. I kind of agree with Lucas that it's much more beneficial to a beginner than to someone who has been around a while. But I also feel working stances does help your rooting, adjusting to different situations, defending take downs, (not by holding the stance, but by the ability to transition smoothly), ect.

I do appreciate your input though.

It's good that you're questioning things.

Stance training is useful to the point that it benefits your MA training, or to the point that you enjoy it.

In other words, if you need to hold a horse stance for 5 minutes for your training, then train to be able to do so. Doing only barbell squats will not get you to that point. But in this situation is there a reason for you to train to the point of holding it for 30 minutes? Not really, unless you want to.

If you want to be stronger, train some sort of resistance exercise where the weight generally increases over time. Stance training will not get you to that point. But in this situation is there a reason for you to train to the point of squatting 500 pounds? Not necessarily, unless you want to be super strong.

And then there's endurance (as in like, not getting tired in a fight), and that's another subject entirely.

[IronFist]

shuai chiao has some static stances that stretch the hamstrings

Can you post some of them?

I'm not questioning you; I want to do them!

[SevenStar]

Can you post some of them?

I'm not questioning you; I want to do them!

stand with your feet together. bend forward as of trying to touch your toes. that standing pole stretch is used, as it's the ending position of their shoulder throw.

[Frost]

Like flipping the tire? I think people like this one so much because it's cool.

For wrestling and grappling flipping a tire is a very good idea, gets your strength in low ranges of motion and you can vary the resistance as you get stronger, for a striking art its not a good idea, but hitting said tire with a sledgehammer is a good idea

[Frost]

Just to play devil's advocate here...
I've encountered static stance drills in boxing, muay thai, and wrestling...
-Ever done wall sits?
I've encountered moving stance drills in muay thai, boxing, and wrestling...
-Ever done bobbing & weaving under the rope in boxing? Is that not moving stance work?
-How about wrestling shots (change level & step in with a deep lunge)?
-In muay thai we often did stepping & hopping lunges as part of our warm up...

The difference I think is that boxing, wrestling, and muay thai use these as ancillary training drills and not the main training.

My personal opinion is that I think too much stance training can be bad for joints & explosiveness.

Part as a warm up is fine, bobbing and weaving is sports specific in that you do it exactly as you would in a fight, the stance isn’t held for time or moved slowly through its dynamic as you said, as is training the wrestling shot which is also sports specific

And wall sits are done for mental strength not really strength building correct?
The difference is as you say they use it for ancillary training, its sports specific and not the main focus

[Kellen Bassette]

for a striking art its not a good idea, but hitting said tire with a sledgehammer is a good idea

Is this because your developing your shoulders with the swing, or because of the muscles you use in your forearms to stabilize the sledge after impact?

[MightyB]

The range where strength is developed is probably the key to stance training. It's not about over all strength development like doing squats - it's about developing the ability to hold that low stance comfortably for long periods of time. This skill is particularly useful for the throwing arts where it's better for you to be in that low posture to both get under your opponent's center of gravity and to keep them from getting below yours. The main benefit of this type of stance training is that as you gain the ability to hold these postures, you'll find that you exert less strength to do them, this allows you to "free up your hips" and relax - again this is very important to the throwing arts, but it's also useful for the striking arts. My teacher amazes everyone he meets with his ability to apply mantis. When showing the applications and trying to teach us to do what he does, he always says to relax the hips - something that students never really can do thus they can't achieve his results with the technique. I observed that this ability actually comes from his ability to maintain low postures comfortably - ie leg strength from stance training - something that westerners just don't want to do.

[Frost]

Is this because your developing your shoulders with the swing, or because of the muscles you use in your forearms to stabilize the sledge after impact?

Rotational force is being developed as well as core strength AND force absorption and stabilization in the arms , mind you medicine ball rebounds mind be better to develop rotation force, but both are very good things for strikers to use if you havent got someone to actually hit

[wenshu]

The difference I think is that boxing, wrestling, and muay thai use these as ancillary training drills and not the main training.

The difference is as you say they use it for ancillary training, its sports specific and not the main focus

I didn't realize horse stance was the main focus in gong fu either.

shuai chiao has some static stances that stretch the hamstrings

Beijing style has a gong bu stance that is trained statically. gong bu chuang yao/chang yao something like that. Any case, it has little to do with the hamstrings. I'll post a picture later when I have some time.