Could a WCner do any better?

[anerlich]

So, coud wcner do better? Yes, get the snake body, no guaranty to win but Atleast one can play while this striker can't. But if you don't have a snake body, but rely on those robot yjkym and holding geometry structure, instead of snake body momentum handling, then you are looking for trouble.

More realistically, he could learn some basic wrestling skills to avoid take downs like the sprawl. That would get you out of the static stance problems PDQ.

Not sure whether any tactic would have worked by an average standup fighter against a skilled groundfighter like Royce.

You remind me of Terence .

You remind me of him too. Totally OCD on a single issue.

Difference is, he occasionally made sense.

[wingchunIan]

Only if you train it for years against someone who knows takedowns. And, once again, it's not going to look much like wing chun anymore. It would resemble much more what you see in mma for defending takedowns.

Agree with the first bit of this statement. The things people always forget / overlook when looking at early UFC footage are
1) Joyce is/was an exceptionally talented individual who trained full time for his whole life, was at the top of his game and had trained for years against strikers etc
2) Most other competition formats didn't allow ground fighting and in the absence of real fights the majority of striking arts had drifted away from the reality of needing to defend takedowns to the point that they weren't practised much if at all and certainly not against skilled exponents (who throw feints, change levels quickly and cover the ground explosively)

As for the second part of the statement, MMA is constantly evolving. A few years ago the only defence against a takedown ever seen aside from panicked hopping was the sprawl, today it is much different and fighters are showing that with an awareness of what is going on combined with angular footwork and the use of arms to control the head / distance there are plenty of other options.

IMHO the takedown is no different to a kick or a punch. If you can't detect it coming you're in a world of trouble, if you can only detect it late it is difficult to defend but if you detect it early it can be stopped and used to your own advantage. Which brings us back to the first part of the comment above because the only way to develop the skill to recognise what is happening is to train against those types of attacks at an appropriate level

[Frost]

Agree with the first bit of this statement. The things people always forget / overlook when looking at early UFC footage are
1) Joyce is/was an exceptionally talented individual who trained full time for his whole life, was at the top of his game and had trained for years against strikers etc
2) Most other competition formats didn't allow ground fighting and in the absence of real fights the majority of striking arts had drifted away from the reality of needing to defend takedowns to the point that they weren't practised much if at all and certainly not against skilled exponents (who throw feints, change levels quickly and cover the ground explosively)

As for the second part of the statement, MMA is constantly evolving. A few years ago the only defence against a takedown ever seen aside from panicked hopping was the sprawl, today it is much different and fighters are showing that with an awareness of what is going on combined with angular footwork and the use of arms to control the head / distance there are plenty of other options.

IMHO the takedown is no different to a kick or a punch. If you can't detect it coming you're in a world of trouble, if you can only detect it late it is difficult to defend but if you detect it early it can be stopped and used to your own advantage. Which brings us back to the first part of the comment above because the only way to develop the skill to recognise what is happening is to train against those types of attacks at an appropriate level

Regarding the second part takedown defence hasn’t changed in MMA all that much in the last 10 years people in the know (ie wrestlers) used the following to defend: footwork and level change at outside distance, in close its head arms (underhooks and framing) then as a final result hips (sprawling) these days all that’s happened is others have caught on that this is the best way to stop takedowns so La Roux is correct if you train constantl;y against skilled takedown artists you will begin to look exactly like how MMA fighters who did this have always looked

And to answer the question in my opinion a typical wing chun guy and they way 90% of wing chun guys train and apprach fighting would fair as bad if not worse than the guy in the clip

[Graham H]

Got any MMA defenses against this?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/man-jailed-..._ylv=3#An7it2L

[Frost]

Got any MMA defenses against this?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/man-jailed-..._ylv=3#An7it2L

are you going all kevin on us/?????

[anerlich]

Got any MMA defenses against this?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/man-jailed-..._ylv=3#An7it2L

Have you got at PBWSLVT defense against it?

[thedreamer7]

Have you got at PBWSLVT defense against it?

Sounds like a good night time rent-a-cop story

[Graham H]

Have you got at PBWSLVT defense against it?

Yes. I would make the same shape on the floor as the victim did. No problem.

Maybe if I took up MMA or cross trained BJJ I would fare better

[Graham H]

are you going all kevin on us/?????

I respect Kevin's opinions and ideas on Ving Tsun. Unlike most on here I actually understand what he means. In that context yes I am.

You could join us for a one off payment of $1500. You can join our cult for a bit of hero worshipping, video posting and wrong ideas on Ving Tsun posting.

I expect you will just stay at your slightly elevated level though.

[wingchunIan]

Regarding the second part takedown defence hasn’t changed in MMA all that much in the last 10 years people in the know (ie wrestlers) used the following to defend: footwork and level change at outside distance, in close its head arms (underhooks and framing) then as a final result hips (sprawling) these days all that’s happened is others have caught on that this is the best way to stop takedowns so La Roux is correct if you train constantl;y against skilled takedown artists you will begin to look exactly like how MMA fighters who did this have always looked

And to answer the question in my opinion a typical wing chun guy and they way 90% of wing chun guys train and apprach fighting would fair as bad if not worse than the guy in the clip

The beauty of perception is that it is individual so we will have to agree to disagree. From my POV whilst wrestlers may still be using the same takedown defences they always did they have evolved their style to be more effective at dealing with strikes. In the same way strikers in MMA have developed take down defences. If you watch fights from UFC etc from differing time periods with a neutral viewpoint you will be able to see the trends that i mentioned in my earlier post, initially no defence to takedowns, then a period where at the first sign of a shoot or takedown attempt there was a sprawl, quite literally everyone was doing it, today the sprawl is seen far less often even in fights where one participant or the other is trying to take the match to the ground.

[Frost]

The beauty of perception is that it is individual so we will have to agree to disagree. From my POV whilst wrestlers may still be using the same takedown defences they always did they have evolved their style to be more effective at dealing with strikes. In the same way strikers in MMA have developed take down defences. If you watch fights from UFC etc from differing time periods with a neutral viewpoint you will be able to see the trends that i mentioned in my earlier post, initially no defence to takedowns, then a period where at the first sign of a shoot or takedown attempt there was a sprawl, quite literally everyone was doing it, today the sprawl is seen far less often even in fights where one participant or the other is trying to take the match to the ground.

that wasnt the point i was trying to make, my fault sorry for not being clear

the point is people with expereince with dealing with takedowns all end up looking the same, what you have seen in MMA isnt an evolution in takedown defense as such, its simply those without that expereince gaining it and learning the same lessons and developing the same skills as those already experineced in wrestling,

And they all tend to look the same which i believe was leroux points, if you train your wing chun against a skilled grappler your defenses will also start to look the same over time...the sprawl is a case in point watch randy in his early fights he never sprawled he used under hooks and feet movement (as did all early MMA guys with a wretling background) the evolution is simply people learning the lessons wrestlers always knew the sprawl is the last line of defense not the first

[Frost]

I respect Kevin's opinions and ideas on Ving Tsun. Unlike most on here I actually understand what he means. In that context yes I am.

You could join us for a one off payment of $1500. You can join our cult for a bit of hero worshipping, video posting and wrong ideas on Ving Tsun posting.

I expect you will just stay at your slightly elevated level though.

so we can expect random THE STREET videos on most threads from now on then??? and then you deleting your threads if things dont go your way

thanks for the kind offer but my cult days are long past!!

[Graham H]

so we can expect random THE STREET videos on most threads from now on then??? and then you deleting your threads if things dont go your way

thanks for the kind offer but my cult days are long past!!

I don't post too many videos especially not of Wing Chun. There is enough rubbish on here.

[Frost]

I don't post too many videos especially not of Wing Chun. There is enough rubbish on here.

true ill give you that Kevins videos fell into two catagories:
PB loveins and street violance which no one could quite figure out why he had posted.....please dont go down his route some of your posts are actually good to read

[Graham H]

please dont go down his route some of your posts are actually good to read

Sometimes I try but then I'm clotheslined by Wing Chun police squad