2 questions

[JamesC]

First, does SS Shaolin teach to strike with the bottom three knuckles for punching?

Second question is a bit more involved. I'm curious about the parallels between two similar movements. One in SS and one in BSL.

I was watching a clip of Xiaohongquan today and there's a move that involves the practitioner bringing the arms to the chest, then rotating while throwing the arms out, one to punch and the other to(presumably) add more force to the strike. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E2JeUXQRa8 at 0:23 in that clip.

To me, it looks like this could have been the same movement you see in BSL Tan Tui at one time in the past. Perhaps an evolution over time?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI9dH62UpYs One of the opening moves at 0:05

If not, what is the purpose of this movement for each style? I understand there's a huge article on the comparisons of SS and BSL. Just curious about this movement in particularly, though.

[wenshu]

gong bu xiu xing (your xhq example) isn't a punch

[JamesC]

gong bu xiu xing (your xhq example) isn't a punch

Ok. Well what is it exactly?

[RenDaHai]

Hey James,

The technique is called XieXing or XieCeng. (Slanted shape)

It is the same technique in Shaolin and Tantui (and Taiji for that matter and almost every other style of Wushu) and it is almost always called the same name. It is one of the most common of all wushu techniques and you would be hard pressed to name a style that doesn't use it.

The technique is one of the most important hammers.

It leads with the elbow and strikes with the hand (can be with knuckles, with hammer, with palm with backfist and more).

The hand that swings to the outside does so to attack and strike through and/or push/pull the opponents hand away and/or for more power.

Generally in Song shan you will lead with the elbows then the hammer fists will chop outwards. The hands pull apart way from each other (ceng). So you can for example left foot foreward you can chop to his left side with the front hand then chop to his right with the rear in quick succession. But there are many many different uses for this move.

Usually when you are guarding with both hands together in KaoShou (handcuff technique) or other structure you suddenly pull the hands apart and strike clearing a path in the process.

TiDaShuaiNa, You Fang You Gong. (can be used in throws, qinna, strikes or blocks)

[GoldenBrain]

In our system of Sil-Lum we are taught to align the index and middle finger knuckles which are the two largest bones in the hand with the radius and ulna bones in the forearm wether striking with a vertical or reverse punch. Karate is the same way though they don't use the vertical punch as often as a reverse punch. If you strike with the bottom three as the lead then your hand is not inline with the forearm and you may be more likely to break one of the smaller bones in the hand. Of course there are other striking methods but this is the way I prefer.

Before I submitted this reply I had to go over to the heavy bag and let go with a few Phoenix Eye punches to verify something for myself and I find that it also aligns the same way as described above even though the contact point is on the middle bone of the index finger just below the knuckle.

Now go whale on that heavy bag!!!

[wenshu]

Ok. Well what is it exactly?

Think more "close quarters".

Dan Bian and Xie Xing are different techniques.

[GeneChing]

They are very similar, but tantui usually interprets it as fairly linear and basic. I've seen a lot of variations with the Songshan interpretations, most of which start with the fundamental tantui application, but then spiral off into all sorts of different interpretations. Which is not to say that tantui practitioners don't go into more complex ideas, it's just that I see more pronounced variation in the Songshan practitioners because I see more of them on a regular basis.

Recently, my disciple brother Xingda showed me a variation he picked up at the Shaolin Cultural Center at Temple City that played it as a back fist.

[JamesC]

They are very similar, but tantui usually interprets it as fairly linear and basic. I've seen a lot of variations with the Songshan interpretations, most of which start with the fundamental tantui application, but then spiral off into all sorts of different interpretations. Which is not to say that tantui practitioners don't go into more complex ideas, it's just that I see more pronounced variation in the Songshan practitioners because I see more of them on a regular basis.

Recently, my disciple brother Xingda showed me a variation he picked up at the Shaolin Cultural Center at Temple City that played it as a back fist.

Interesting. I suppose that is one of the charms of the SS forms. I think I remember you saying you felt they were more "profound" in their depth than your previous forms in BSL.

Thanks for the help guys. The reason I ask is because I was shown a version of XHQ a few years back by a (former)good friend that trained in China for a year. He taught me the movements, but we never really got into the applications or anything much deeper than movements because he was more into the Sanda side. And so was I.

I've practiced it on and off since then, just enough to keep in memorized. Since i'm unable to practice at a school these days i've been considering getting into it deeper.

Unfortunately, it isn't a version i've seen played by anyone else. I suspect that a lot of the SS forms have a ton of variations between practitioners? If so I may just end up switching to a version I can find online or on video(said friend now lives in Korea and we haven't spoken in years).

[wenshu]

Recently, my disciple brother Xingda showed me a variation he picked up at the Shaolin Cultural Center at Temple City that played it as a back fist.

Interesting. I suppose that is one of the charms of the SS forms.

It's also a source of frustration. I study at the school Gene mentioned and learned XHQ there about 5 years ago. There have been as many as 5-6 monks teaching at any given time. Because they all came from different schools originally before getting drafted for the majors, that means as many as 6 versions of every technique and form. I don't study with the normal classes as often anymore because it is too frustrating to be taught one way and then turn around and get corrected because everybody's doing it another way (which you may or may not prefer).

So my gong bu xie xing is different than the 3 or 4 other version that have been taught and I am biased that the way I learned it is better and it is essentially useless as a fist strike. Not that it can't be utilized that way, movements in gong fu are versatile like that. But its much more effective as a clinch escape or a throw.

[Scott R. Brown]

Most hand breaks during fights occur from impacting with the ring and little finger.

[JamesC]

Most hand breaks during fights occur from impacting with the ring and little finger.

That's always been my assumption too. I can't remember where I read that they hit with the last three knuckles. Just curious really.

[Subitai]

More important IMO, is the Shaolin credo: punch as if your fist is " A stone or dart at the end of a rope"

Meaning the fist is tight before impact and the arm is loose and supple. Hard object, shot quickly, yet relaxed. If your fist is truly compact of course it does more damage but also better protected.

*** Another way to look at it...make a fist and imagine you have a ROCK in your hand the same size. Now ask yourself, how fast you could Baseball Pitch that sukka at someone? Would it matter if he put up his hands to block it?

Yet, i've been in few discussions with people on various forums that will SWEAR up and down how punching with a "Loose" fist is better.

I know of a couple ways to do this mostly from my Filipino style...but the one important fact is that it's always from a very short distance, i.e. up close to target. Yeah, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say I don't prefer the way most WC guys do it...still too far away.

But punching with a loose fist from a chambered ala traditional position...just plane stupid. When a guy jams his fingers or breaks something because all I did was drop my elbow...that's his problem for punching with weak foundation.

I bring all this up because of what Scott said...pretty astute because one of the first basics you learn at Shaolin is to keep the fists closed when punching. For the very reasons I said.

[Scott R. Brown]

That's always been my assumption too. I can't remember where I read that they hit with the last three knuckles. Just curious really.

It is not an assumption however, everyone I have known and know of, including boxers that have sustained a broken hand from striking with the fist it is ALWAYS the little and ring finger hand bones.

[wenshu]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer's_fracture

[JamesC]

It is not an assumption however, everyone I have known and know of, including boxers that have sustained a broken hand from striking with the fist it is ALWAYS the little and ring finger hand bones.

I wouldn't know. I've always been taught to hit with the first two. Everyone else I know that has been in a fight other than in the ring isn't trained so it would be hard to tell.