How much forms you know, and is it really good to know many?

[Hanak]

I wonder how much forms the people here know?
And also if its really good to know many?

I know, Xiao Hong Chuan, Taizu Chaun, lian chan quan and if you see it as a form Wu Bu Chuan.

And in my school its still not enough, sometime's I say to myself.

Wubu, Lian and Xiao hong are enough!

What is your idea about this?

[LFJ]

Having a range of forms gives you a broader understanding of Shaolinquan and changeability, and it is not like trying to master many systems, because it is all still Songshan Shaolin and shares the same basics.

What and how much you learn is up to you. If you want an understanding of an effective and logical system though, it's best to learn all of one subsystem, rather than have a mixed plate that is incomplete. What you may find then, as I have, is that to have a deeper understanding of one subsystem you must look at what it comes from and what it is related to. So it's a never ending learning process, but sure, you could learn all of Shaolin Hongquan in one sect and be set with a logical and effective system.

[Kellen Bassette]

I know probably more than 70 forms and katas, from various systems. I regularly practice about 4. The others I do once in a while just so I don't forget them. If you have too many forms you can not maintain them all, it will consume all your practice time. Too many people become form collectors and forgo developing basic fighting skill.

Master what you have now. Learn and train all the other aspects of Kung Fu. There is so much repetition and overlap in forms, many times your not learning anything new, just a new sequence of mostly the same techniques. There's always time for more forms later if you grow bored with what you do now.

[RenDaHai]

Depends how much time you have for it. And it depends what your goals are in Learning Kung Fu.

There is no set number.

It is always a mistake not to challenge yourself. If you let your training Plateau then that is just as biting off more than you can chew.

To learn the alphabet as a song without learning the individual letters is a mistake. But once you know those components it is a mistake not to move on and learn more.

Learning form is just like learning a foreign language. If you tried to learn a song in Chinese imagine how difficult it would be? YOu could do it sure, but trying to learn many would be insane because you have to remember so many sounds. But , actually learn the language and the component words and you will find it is easy to remember. Learning 100 songs is then easy.

So with forms the limit is your understanding. If you don't really get it then practice just one. If you understand it well then challenge yourself to learn more, and the new ones will give you a new perspective and deeper understanding of the old ones.

Overfamiliarity is just as bad as under familiarity. Changeability is key in Kung Fu. Master the components and the principles, then you can read forms like reading a book.

[David Jamieson]

I know quite a few at this point.

I actively use 3.

1 dynamic tension set
1 staff set
1 broadsword set

The rest I visit now and then to ensure that I retain the sequence and all motions.

[Empty_Cup]

Depends on the level of mastery you want to achieve. I try to keep as many forms as required for my school but really focus on a few.

[taichi4eva]

do you do tibetan white crane, skm? if so, may i ask who your teacher is?

[Hanak]

Depends on the level of mastery you want to achieve. I try to keep as many forms as required for my school but really focus on a few.

What you say is 100% my filosophy.

A monk once told on a workshop it takes 8 years to master a single FORM!
To perform it without thinking, to understand the DEEP meaning of that FORM.

And if you study manny of them, you can understand it ALL, thats impossible.

Thats why, give me max 2 forms, the rest is a must from my school!
Those forms I can study it deeply!

Deeply means, what are the techniques behind this movements.
Sometimes you practice a single movement not to use in a fight but to give you more internal strenght ect.

That make's that form then more and more special.

But anyway, this is my opinion of it, at the end WHO AM I

[David Jamieson]

Form is not what defines mastery.

The ability to effectively use the techniques with high percentage of success is what constitutes mastery.

Form is just shape. If you don't use the techniques in a form, you will not master them ever. You cannot dance and claim to understand fighting.

Form is the entry teachings. You only have two arms and two legs and one body, there are no forms that are better or worse, they are all there to categorize a system and catalog it.

If you don't use what's in the library, you only are aware that the library is there and you are not actually making use of the information within.

8 years 10 years? All this talk of absolutes indicate that someone is retelling a misinterpretation or they are simply lying for reasons of ego or desire of your wealth.

Forms have a use and a purpose, but they are not the road to mastery in and of themselves and never have been.

[Kellen Bassette]

Great post DJ...hard to imagine anyone here disagreeing with that..I'm not sure how, but I'll bet it will offend a lot of folks anyway...

[RenDaHai]

Form is not what defines mastery.

The ability to effectively use the techniques with high percentage of success is what constitutes mastery.

Form is just shape. If you don't use the techniques in a form, you will not master them ever. You cannot dance and claim to understand fighting.

Hehe, Well I'm gonna disagree, but with friendly demeanour.

I can bear that many people here are under the delusion that Kung Fu and martial arts are the same thing, but not in Shaolin. Shaolin is ChanWu, not Wushu. It is important to remember this. Shaolin is the culture of the Shaolin temple, a unique method in the pursuit of Chan.

The ability to apply techniques in training and in reality are very different and one does not guarantee the other. With some techniques, using them in reality immediately disqualifies you from being a Shaolin master.

I would agree that one must be able to apply a technique in training to learn it and understand it and practice its form correctly. But form is not just a simple collection of dirty tricks. Form is a great deal more than shape.

Very short version: The human exists as Mind (Yi) and Instinct (Xin). The two cannot communicate directly. They only know each other through the sensations of the body. It is necessary to develop the body to bring mind and instinct into harmony. Gong Fu is born.

Form is the basis of training our body. Every movement has form, not just fighting technique but walking, dancing, farming, all the actions of our life. Mastery lies in abstraction, not in the application of a technique to its purpose but in the wisdom to apply this technique to everything you do. To use Shaolin Shen Fa in farming is just as valid as to use it in combat.

One does not need to harm another person to master Shaolin Gong Fu, it is important to discipline ones violent nature, not surpress or indulge it. So Wushu IS an important part of Shaolin culture, but it does not supercede form or Chan.

[RenDaHai]

Thank you for this post.

Your welcome, I'm happy you could identify with it.

[David Jamieson]

Intention is everything.

And if you use your kung fu to defend yourself or someone who cannot then you have used it correctly.

If you never use it in the intention of it's design, then you will never master it. Direct experience is the truest of teachers for all.

A child playing with a toy gun is NOT even close to a soldier in a firefight though the child mimics every action that the for real soldier is doing.

I agree, no one needs to be a bully. No one needs to be aggressive. But understanding Shaolin Kung Fu is a double edged blade in that respect. We have to accept that in order to forge a good sword it is subjected to fire and the hammer.

At some point along the line, if you want the total and deepest understanding of what it is your are practicing, you need to get comfortable with being uncomfortable and learn about the original intention of your forms that you are practicing and learning.

Also, there is great value in losing a fight for anyone. More value than in winning one i my opinion.

[RenDaHai]

A child playing with a toy gun is NOT even close to a soldier in a firefight though the child mimics every action that the for real soldier is doing.

And a soldier in training is not even close to a soldier in a real firefight. But that real firefight is impossible to replicate in training.

Intention is everything.

Indeed, Intent and Instinct. They come from the two opposite aspects of the mind. It plays the largest of all roles in combat, and that is why it staggers me that so few people try to take this into account when training. Everyone seems to assume that you will always be in the same emotional state (instinctual) and have the same intent in every fight. But I have had different fights. And when you are afraid and do not know what your goal is it is very different from when you are angry and know exactly your purpose. In these two different situations you cannot fight in the same way and it is a mistake to try.

At some point along the line, if you want the total and deepest understanding of what it is your are practicing, you need to get comfortable with being uncomfortable and learn about the original intention of your forms that you are practicing and learning.

And in Shaolin I can be certain of that intention. And it far exceeds the violent application. But rather, to learn the form, to do the movement properly in the first place one must understand and practice its application.


I think maybe you and I have it opposite ways around. You are seeing form as a way to learning the application, I see good application as a way to learning the form.

[David Jamieson]

And a soldier in training is not even close to a soldier in a real firefight. But that real firefight is impossible to replicate in training.



Indeed, Intent and Instinct. They come from the two opposite aspects of the mind. It plays the largest of all roles in combat, and that is why it staggers me that so few people try to take this into account when training. Everyone seems to assume that you will always be in the same emotional state (instinctual) and have the same intent in every fight. But I have had different fights. And when you are afraid and do not know what your goal is it is very different from when you are angry and know exactly your purpose. In these two different situations you cannot fight in the same way and it is a mistake to try.



And in Shaolin I can be certain of that intention. And it far exceeds the violent application. But rather, to learn the form, to do the movement properly in the first place one must understand and practice its application.


I think maybe you and I have it opposite ways around. You are seeing form as a way to learning the application, I see good application as a way to learning the form.

The application within the form is not just the shen fa energy or any of the other ging. The application is the technique expressed with the designed intention.

We aren't disagreeing at all, you are equating correct energy application to farming and dancing and I am correlating it directly to the intended use which is attack and defense of the physical body through use of it in a physical sense.

Golden bell has a side effect of health but a real intention of being able to make violence if and when required to do so.

we cannot go soft on the idea that violence is out there and we cannot say that violence is not connected to kung fu practice. It is. It is obviously what it is about an the simple point is that if you cannot make violence and cannot defend against violence and do not have direct experience with these same things, then you cannot know what it really is because again, you know the library is there, but you don't know what is in it and you have not read the books or applied the knowledge within.

To understand violence is not to be consumed by it or to see it as the only way. It i s a truth of doing Kung fu and to wash it away with other focuses is indeed to lose sight of the intention of the lessons.

we learn how to quickly and effectively deal with violence.

remember the old axiom.

Avoid rather than check.
Check rather than hurt.
Hurt rather than maim.
Maim rather than kill.
For all life is precious, nor can any be replaced.

This is a big part of why you learn Kung Fu. So that you are able to do all these things required if need be.