Tradional technique vs. tournament technique

[LaRoux]

I asked a particularly experienced friend of mine (3 tours) if he ever had any hand-to-hand training (Drake, you still around?). He said he was taught one move he used, which was grabbing a hand with two fingers in each hand, and pulling sideways, while bending back.
He used it once in a situation where there were several 'maybe bad' guys all rounded up and they were having a bit of a chat when one grabbed for his sidearm, in a suicide holster on his chest. When he did it it tore the guys hand in half, nearly down to the wrist.

I wonder if that qualifies as an effective 'real combat' technique, bit you'd get disqualified if you tried it in a tournament. Just sayin...

It qualifies as "fantasy made up in the head and never actually done" technique.

Just sayin;

[Yum Cha]

It qualifies as "fantasy made up in the head and never actually done" technique.

Just sayin;

Funny, most Ju Jitsu guys I met know that move. Maybe you could talk to someone who knows a bit to get the reference. Funny thing was, he got a couple of quick lessons and put it into play the first time he had to use it. Granted, he was a bit stressed at the time, and quite well trained in other areas.

From your last post on the other thread about military tactics, you seem to be rather ill informed in that area, so I'll guess that extends to the individuals as well. So, what's your issue? You think it can't de done period, or you think its just a big porkey that anybody actually could/would do it?

And, more importantly, how would you know?

A common fool can call anybody a liar....and they usually do. Go back to lurking if that's the best you can do.

[YouKnowWho]

grabbing a hand with two fingers in each hand, and pulling sideways, while bending back. ..

When you do that, it's better to use your chest to press on your opponent's palm (hard for him to pull his hand back) when you move toward him (to jam his arm between your body and his body). Also it's better to force him to drop down to the ground (if you use 45 degree forward downward force).

The "finger split" can be used on the thumb too. In Taiwan, it's taught to all cops. When a driver holds on his steering wheel and refuses to come out of his car, you use your 4 fingers to pull his thumb away from his other 4 fingers (your 4 fingers are always stronger than his single finger - thumb).

If your opponent holds on your forearm (away from your wrist), you can also use your other hand to hold on his forearm, bend your elbow downward and toward him to against his thumb, and break loose his grip.

When your opponent holds on your wrist, a twist into his thumb can break his grib much easier than to twist into his 4 fingers (1 finger is weaker than 4 fingers).

To pull finger/fingers away from other fingers is a common TCMA "finger joint locking" skill. Unfortunately, since MMA guys always have MMA gloves on, you will never be able to see "finger split" in any cage fight. By definition, it may always be categoried as "non-realistic TCMA technique".

[GeneChing]

It's very good reading.

Look up his competitive fencing record.

[HmorenoM]

IMO, the difference between street technique and tournament technique is in

- street, you are dealing with average Joe.
- tournament, you are dealing with the best of the best.

Not always an average Joe is on the street, and not always the best of the best are in tournaments...

[Robinhood]

The street your dealing with unknown, the tournament your dealing with known techniques and rules.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The street your dealing with unknown, the tournament your dealing with known techniques and rules.

Very true, hence if you can't beat someone under those controlled conditions, you'll have less of a chance under uncontrolled conditions.

[sanjuro_ronin]

...back when mastodons still roamed the earth...

...we used to talk about tournament techniques.

In fencing at the university, I was part of two programs: the NCAA one where there really was only tournaments and results, and a classical masters program, which often talked about the degradation of fencing methods by modern competition. Of course, the masters program was academic.

In kendo, our dojo was descended from a Japanese military police dojo (that's my lineage there and I'm proud of it) so it was pretty hardcore. When we struck men (head target), we weren't only supposed to strike with sufficient impact to split the skull. We were instructed cut hard enough to cleave well into the chest cavity. Kendoka who bounced when they fought were derogatorily referred to as 'university' kendoka, who only trained for tournaments.

Gene knows what is !

[Sima Rong]

I'm sure someone a while back posted a video of some of the Gracies talking about the art as primarily composed of sport techniques against an opponent skilled in ground fighting, but that their training centres needed to focus on the core of self defense techniques first until the learner is adept at them before learning a sport guard which might be anathema to self defence.
Some behaviours in a sporting situation are not appropriate to self defence, such as not training to guard against punches or strikes when you are training grappling on the ground with other grapplers.
Many sport techniques too when taken out of a controlled situation or when not used on the mat and on a concrete floor could be lethal, such as some sanda throws.

[Robinhood]

Very true, hence if you cane beat someone under those controlled conditions, you'll have less of a chance under uncontrolled conditions.

I don't see any correlation to your statement, your assuming something ,..... if you are told something , you have better chance of knowing what you weren't told.

If you practice for rules, you also might limit yourself to those rules.


It is easier to prepare for something known then something unknown.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't see any correlation to your statement, your assuming something ,..... if you are told something , you have better chance of knowing what you weren't told.

If you practice for rules, you also might limit yourself to those rules.


It is easier to prepare for something known then something unknown.

To go with your point of:It is easier to prepare for something known then something unknown- if you can't beat someone under known conditions, what makes you think you can beat them under unknown conditions?

[Robinhood]

To go with your point of:It is easier to prepare for something known then something unknown- if you can't beat someone under known conditions, what makes you think you can beat them under unknown conditions?

What makes you think they can ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

What makes you think they can ?

Look what YOU wrote:

It is easier to prepare for something known then something unknown.

The street your dealing with unknown, the tournament your dealing with known techniques and rules.

By that logic ( which I agree with), if you can't beat a person in a sport match because the rules and conditions are known and you would be, typically, on equal footing as it were, how can you hope to beat that person when you are NOT equal and the conditions are unknown?
Logically, you can't.
EX:
If I fight someone in the ring and we are both limited by rules and I know him because I have studied his previous fights or maybe in films of him, BUT I can't beat him under those conditions which are far more favorable to me than if I did NOT know anything or there were no rules to level the playing field, then it makes no sense to thing I can beat him when he is NOT limited to those rules and conditions and I do NOT know him at all.

[YouKnowWho]

I have studied his previous fights or maybe in films of him,

In sport, you can't hide yourself. If you are a striker. everybody will know that you are a striker. If your are a grappler, everybody will also know you are a grappler.

In street, someone may punch you very hard at your head. The moment that you think he is a striker, he shoots at your leg.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In sport, you can't hide yourself. If you are a striker. everybody will know that you are a striker. If your are a grappler, everybody will also know you are a grappler.

In street, someone may punch you very hard at your head. The moment that you think he is a striker, he shoots at your leg.

It works both ways, that is why sport has rules, to make the playing field as even as possible and that is why, under those conditions, everyone has a better chance then if there were no rules and their opponent was unknown.

To say that in the street you have a better chance because there are no rules means that you are assuming that, for some reason, you will have an advantage over your opponent that ALSO HAS NO RULES !