Lifting is not the only way to get strong.

[Golden Arms]

Sevenstar,

I have experiences to draw from, as do others, what I am looking for is information I can cite. Do you have studies to support your answers?

How much energy is left and recovery is needed after each type of workout, yes this will vary from person to person, as will all other factors. This will also vary from workout type to workout type.

Which hormones and what do your consider favorable? Are we talking about testosterone, cortisol, etc. In this instance favorable response would probably be testosterone and HGH. Elevated stress/adrenal hormones can wreak havoc on the body over time. Again what is a favorable mixture for someone that trains regularly and how do we attain it?

Do some methods have longer or shorter periods of hormone response. What methods and what differences? This could play a large role in deciding on what to plug in to an overall training regimen.

heavy, maximal weight, few sets, few reps. it trains the muscles to contract harder - neurological response. This is a way, but lifting heavy is not the only way to train them to contract harder. The more often we can train this up to a point, the better our ability to go from fully relaxed to fully contracted will potentially be. Many heavy lifting regimens can't realistically be done that often.

why target only one type? Why not? If you wish to move towards for instance a faster twitch type of movement, why not encourage the muscle to adapt towards this need?

Residual tension in relaxed muscles is a neurological issue; maximal lifting. Perhaps, but it can also be said that learning to relax is a skill. Perhaps this ability to go from maximal contraction to relaxation could be trained. Why overlook this? If it has not been overlooked, what are the most successful methods for doing so employed today?

I train both in intensity and frequency like a pro athlete and have for the last 13 years. I take my training seriously and dogma is not good enough proof for me. I look towards personal results and try to keep an open mind. That is why I am interested in this subject.

[IronFist]

So to sum things up in the thread so far:

[LIST][*]You can put on muscle without lifting weights.

But the limit to how much you can put on is very low.

Doing pushups and bodyweight squats WILL add some muscle to a beginner.

[*]This is not the most efficient way to put on muscle or become strong but it does work.

Yes, but it only works to a point.

Assume your starting point is 1 and your genetic potential for muscle is 10.

Not using weights will get you to about a max of about 3.

[*]Getting bigger generally makes you stronger.[*]Getting bigger may not make you stronger, even if the tissue you are adding is muscle. Are there studies that support this?

No, that's nonsense. Assuming "getting bigger" refers to adding muscle here and not fat.

The only way you can get bigger without getting stronger is if you used to be a smaller powerlifter and then decide to switch gears and start bodybuilding. Your 1RMs would go down (because you stopped training like a powerlifter) so technically you are not getting stronger, although training and eating like a bodybuilder will probably make you bigger.

Of course, training and eating like a bodybuilder will increase your endurance for bodybuliding type training (things like multiple sets of 8-12 reps with shorter rest periods) beyond where it was when you were a powerlifter, even though your maximal strength output is decreasing.

All else being equal, a bigger muscle has more potential for strength, and is stronger.

In the above example, all else was not equal, because the person in question used to be a powerlifter (high level of nervous system adaptation) and then stopped powerlifting (loses some of that adaptation).

Strength is really an issue of how efficiently your body can use the muscle you have. There are various safety mechanisms in place to prevent you from using 100% of your muscle, as doing so would damage your body (an example being people who lift cars during emergency situations and injure themselves in the process).

Strength training makes you stronger by lessening these safety mechanisms. Your body becomes more efficient at using what you have (strength gain without size gain). You can see an example of this with beginners their first day at the gym. Maybe someone can only bench press the bar (45 pounds) on his first day. On his next workout he can bench press the bar with a 5lb plate on each side (55 lbs). That's over a 20% gain in a couple days (if only it continued like that, lol)! Did he get bigger during those few days off? No. But he experienced CNS adaptation and is now able to use his existing muscle more efficiently.

Of course if you gain muscle then you have more potential.

As it turns out, though, training for size and training for maximal strength are done differently. Getting bigger makes you stronger, but not necessarily as efficiently as training ONLY for strength. But training for only strength limits you to the potential of the amount of muscle you currently have. If you want to get stronger still, eventually you have to put on more muscle. Doing so will decondition you to maximal strength in the process (because you have stopped training for maximal strength), so you have to balance the two according to your needs, goals, etc.

Think of it like a car engine.

A 1.7L engine will probably have less torque than a 4.0L engine. All else being equal, a smaller muscle is weaker than a bigger muscle.

That smaller engine can be turbocharged, however. That's strength training without gaining size.

In fact, that 1.7L engine can be modified to produce more power than the 4.0L engine.

But the 4.0L engine (big muscles) has more potential. Turbo charge that engine and leave the 1.7 turboed engine in your rear view mirror.

[IronFist]

Some factors I have not heard mentioned so far:

• How much energy is left and recovery is needed after each type of workout

I don't know that this can be quantified.

I've noticed, however, that I feel more refreshed after a low volume, heavy weight powerlifting type workout, and more tired after a bodybuilding type workout.

[*]Which methods have a more or less favorable hormone response

I dunno. I'm sure there are studies on this somewhere. Supposedly big compound movements boost testosterone and gh but it's not really significant IIRC.

[*]Do some methods have longer or shorter periods of hormone response

I don't think that's really the kind of thing most people need to worry about. There's enough evidence for specific types of training yielding specific results and what happens with the hormones is already taken into account. In other words, if you want to get strong, train for strength. The necessary hormone changes for you to get stronger will occur as you train.

[*]What about methods that increase the strength of the impulse sent to/received by the muscle as well as muscle fiber recruitment from those impulses?

See above. This is happening automatically.

[*]Different types of workouts can potentially cater towards slower or faster twitch fibers. Is your workout targeting the speed you specifically wish to move?

Everyone has a different fast/slow twitch makeup. Supposedly there are ways to test but I don't think it's that big of a deal, really. What would you do if you find out your quads have more or less fast twitch than average? Would that affect your training, or would your goal still be to get as strong as possible and you'd still train according to the most efficient ways to build strength?

[*]Do some methods tends to leave more residual tension in the body during off-time?

Probably only if you overtrain.

For instance, explosive negatives can fire a fast twitch response that can be very difficult to get with conventional lifts using heavier or even light weights for some.

In your example, what would be your goal for triggering a fast twitch response?

Are you doing that for the sake of fast twitch response, or are you more concerned with explosive negatives as they relate to getting stronger?

I'm not phrasing this correctly. I've posted a lot in this thread already. I need food now and will try to see if I can think of how to say what I want to say later.

[Golden Arms]

IronFist,

Thanks for taking the time to answer the questions. I am not honestly looking for much in the way of info for myself as I have done and continue to do my own research. I figured that it would be a good chance for us as a group to examine commonly held beliefs to see if they are the only way or just the way everyone chooses because they assume it is the only way.

Like I state previously, I don't train as a hobbyist and have not for a long time. My interests in strength training cater towards the elements I brought up, and I wanted to see if these were even on the radar for most. It looks like if they are, its not necessarily well known. (Another example that comes to mind is training utilizing a the PowerPlate, a vibrating plate while moving through ROM with or without weight. This has been used in the NFL for stretching, muscle activation, and for recovery.)

Just because I posted some questions does not imply that I am not strong or know nothing about lifting. Strength training for the nebulous goal of "being strong" is not interesting to me at this point, I know a million ways to go about doing that. What is interesting is training that causes very specific adaptation and that can be mapped onto the movement requirements/patterns of my chosen art and that it is a good fit in my overall game-plan, not taking away from my other training, but enhancing it.

[Golden Arms]

In your example, what would be your goal for triggering a fast twitch response?

Are you doing that for the sake of fast twitch response, or are you more concerned with explosive negatives as they relate to getting stronger?

In this example it would be for strengthening specifically my fast twitch muscle response.

[YouKnowWho]

Could someone help me to find an answer for my question?

My daughter has never lifted any weight in her lifetime (I'm her father and I know it). She can do something that I can't. Why?

http://imageshack.us/a/img444/1957/nanac.jpg

http://natashawang.com/

I might have asked this question before but I can't remember that I got any answer.

[Kellen Bassette]

I've noticed a few references on this thread about pushups not making you stronger, after a certain point, only helping muscle endurance. Do you guys feel that this type of muscle endurance translates well to things like keeping your guard up for several rounds of sparring, (when the hands start to drop), or delay burning out the arms during rolling?

[IronFist]

Could someone help me to find an answer for my question?

My daughter has never lifted any weight in her lifetime (I'm her father and I know it). She can do something that I can't. Why?

http://imageshack.us/a/img444/1957/nanac.jpg

http://natashawang.com/

I might have asked this question before but I can't remember that I got any answer.

Through her training she has developed:

a) the specific neural pathways to do that pose

b) the strength to do that pose

So why can't you do that?

a) you have never trained to do so and lack the "muscle memory" so to speak, even if you are otherwise strong enough

b) she's a skinny female and the absolute strength required for her to do it is less than required for you to do it (I'm assuming you weigh more than her). Smaller people tend to be stronger relative to their bodyweight. How many 250 pound bodybuilders do you see doing one arm pullups?

Strength is only part of the equation. Neural adaptation is another part. Let me give you another example. Sometimes people who have a good base of strength will try something new, and even though they have the strength to do it, they can't do it very well. This often manifests as shaking through the movement. Take someone who has been bench pressing for years and is pretty strong, but all they've ever done is bench press. Now have them do ring pushups (image); they will shake like crazy!

Why? Is it because they're not strong enough? Of course not. It's because it's a new movement and their body is going "whoa, what are you making me do?" New neural pathways are being used and the body is not yet efficient at them.

Sometimes people mistake this occurrence as "he's not strong enough." A more accurate statement would be "he isn't yet efficient enough" or "he isn't yet coordinated enough to perform that new movement effectively."

[YouKnowWho]

the body is not yet efficient at them.

That's a very logical explanation. Thanks for your information.

[bawang]

I don't train

ok.

fdgdgfdgfdh

[Frost]

I've noticed a few references on this thread about pushups not making you stronger, after a certain point, only helping muscle endurance. Do you guys feel that this type of muscle endurance translates well to things like keeping your guard up for several rounds of sparring, (when the hands start to drop), or delay burning out the arms during rolling?

the problem is endurance can be very specific to the enviroment you are using it in: push ups work the chest, triceps some back and shhulder stability etc, keeping the hands up is largely a shoulder endurance exercise which hits the muscles at a different angle

the burning in the arms felt when rolling is an isometic lactic event, the only way to actually combat this is to replicate the isometic and grip hold you are using

So to keep it short if you want to keep your hands up better pratcise that, if you wan to delay onset of burning during grappling grapple more and hold the static positions more

[Frost]

Through her training she has developed:

a) the specific neural pathways to do that pose

b) the strength to do that pose

So why can't you do that?

a) you have never trained to do so and lack the "muscle memory" so to speak, even if you are otherwise strong enough

b) she's a skinny female and the absolute strength required for her to do it is less than required for you to do it (I'm assuming you weigh more than her). Smaller people tend to be stronger relative to their bodyweight. How many 250 pound bodybuilders do you see doing one arm pullups?

Strength is only part of the equation. Neural adaptation is another part. Let me give you another example. Sometimes people who have a good base of strength will try something new, and even though they have the strength to do it, they can't do it very well. This often manifests as shaking through the movement. Take someone who has been bench pressing for years and is pretty strong, but all they've ever done is bench press. Now have them do ring pushups (image); they will shake like crazy!

Why? Is it because they're not strong enough? Of course not. It's because it's a new movement and their body is going "whoa, what are you making me do?" New neural pathways are being used and the body is not yet efficient at them.

Sometimes people mistake this occurrence as "he's not strong enough." A more accurate statement would be "he isn't yet efficient enough" or "he isn't yet coordinated enough to perform that new movement effectively."

what he said

[sanjuro_ronin]

The law of specificity states that you get better ( or stronger or faster or can do it longer) at something by doing that something on a regular basis ( the more you do it, typically, the better you get at it).
EX: when I was benching over 300lbs for reps, I once tried to two a one handed push up and only did about 5
So, I trained the 1 handed push up and got to where I could do 15.
My bench went down a bit simply because I didn't focus on it BUT I got stronger in the one handed push up BUT "weaker" in the bench.
I got better at the one handed push up because I did it more and my body grew stronger for it AND got used to doing it and did it well.
I lost a bit on my bench because I stopped focusing on it.

[Frost]

(Another example that comes to mind is training utilizing a the PowerPlate, a vibrating plate while moving through ROM with or without weight. This has been used in the NFL for stretching, muscle activation, and for recovery.)

.

The problem is a lot of this stuff is known, but not very useful to most trainers and ot very practical. Now do you measure training effects on yourself with out blood work, lactic work and an omegawave or HRV machine?
Verkhoshansky et al looked a lot at hormonal response to training and its effects on athletes during his time in the USSR for example, based on this he made several recommendations on how to best structure training (they also made extensive use of vibration work for recovery and warm ups etc), but for a non elite athlete what use is this?
Most people will get better simply doing their chosen sports, getting stronger and getting more explosive
(getting stronger will result in the nervous system being better able to contract the maximum amount of muscle as rapidly as possible and thus result in stronger, more explosive muscular contractions.) and then working on sports specific energy systems to ensure this better contraction can be fully utilized in your chosen sport
Not in reading endless studies which wont make much of a difference to them

[IronFist]

Cliffs notes on this vibrational stuff? Are you guys talking about a Shake Weight?