About the importance of niem lik

[poulperadieux]

An excellent article of "Nature".

We think as a certanity that our hand is our hand, Descartes wrote about it, a lot.

You were wrong, the limits of our body, our self are continously refreshed and placed in jeopardy by simple illusions or more invasive brain stimulations in the cingular gyrus.


I let you read :

http://www.nature.com/news/out-of-bo...llusion-1.9569

http://www.nature.com/news/2002/0209...s020916-8.html

[Hendrik]

Niem Lik is just human emulate the mechanics of a rod to transfer applied force. Why makes it more then it is and cause confusion?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...&postcount=218

[GlennR]

Niem Lik is just human emulate the mechanics of a rod to transfer applied force. Why makes it more then it is and cause confusion?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...&postcount=218

Can you show us the data you have accumulated to come to this conclusion?

[poulperadieux]

Niem Lik is just human emulate the mechanics of a rod to transfer applied force. Why makes it more then it is and cause confusion?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...&postcount=218

Because there's the brain involved?

And it's a rather complex stuff?

[poulperadieux]

Humain being biomecanics can't be explained only by... Mercanic theories...


Because of the Bio thing of course !


We are not machines !


There's a few layers of information process between what we want to do and what we actually do, how we locate our body in space, how we recruit muscles, how we balance agonists and antagonist, and synergestic muscles to make a precise move...


That link, for me, It was called Niem Lik.

[Paddington]

Can't, he's a man of faith, not science.

Actually that link to Hendrik's previous post that Hendrik cites argues for demystifying the term.

Whilst I think you raise some interesting points about the 'mind', this Descartian insistence on separating the 'mind' and 'body' has come into a little trouble of late. Ironically, the proverbial trouble maker being Taoist and Buddhist thought.

[imperialtaichi]

If everything is about simple physics then we should all learn Kung Fu from Stephen Hawkings.

There is no point watching football, as the winner should be determined in a Lab, not a field.

[imperialtaichi]

I let you read :

http://www.nature.com/news/out-of-bo...llusion-1.9569

a quote from the article:

"Ehrsson's next challenge is to work out what these illusions reveal about the brain. According to textbook wisdom, people build up a perception of their bodies using 'proprioception' — signals from the skin, muscles and joints that indicate the relative position of body parts. But Ehrsson's illusions show that vision and touch are also a crucial part of the mix, and that the brain builds a sense of self by constantly compiling information from all these senses. Proprioception may be telling the brain that the body is seated in a chair, but the carefully timed vision and touch signals in Ehrsson's illusion convince the brain that it is somewhere else entirely."

This is really, really interesting. My experience with many skilled internal masters is that, my senses are being fooled. In one occasion, where my student was videoing me being pushed down by GM Wei (IYTC), what I felt my posture was, was indeed completely different from the videoed image.

[Hendrik]

Actually that link to Hendrik's previous post that Hendrik cites argues for demystifying the term.

Whilst I think you raise some interesting points about the 'mind', this Descartian insistence on separating the 'mind' and 'body' has come into a little trouble of late. Ironically, the proverbial trouble maker being Taoist and Buddhist thought.

The issue is the term nim Lik is not accord to the Chinese ancient definition, or siu lin tau kuen kuit of 1850, or wck tradition, and actually missed term be it in Confusious, daoist, or Buddhism.

So, further evolve this type of term is going to cause confusion. Like those who take fuzzy or blur or dull as zen.


1. Niem in Chinese means the present state of heart or present state of mind.


2. Mind has four basic functions, thinking, intending, visualizing, and aware.


So, what is Niem Lik which TST refer to?

Using TST making the weight scale rising demo as example.

Niem lik for him is using the intending function of the mind , to hold the body limbs passing the force applied on him , such that the point of taking the applied force ( ie hand ) and the ground support point (scale )are in synch for force transfer.
Thus, the body is emulating a rod which transfer the force applied at one end to the other end. Or to sustain the incoming force from one end by the support of the grounding of the other end.


3. We can see here, the intending function of mind in TST process is doing alignment to emulate a rod passing force from one end to the other end. It is a communication or control or alignment mechanism but not a force generation or power path mechanism.

Thus, the name Niem Lik which means the present mind state force is not accurate to describe what kind of mind- body phenomenon. But causing confusion.
The mind mechanic is simply not related to the force directly.

The process is

intending --> body alignment --> channeling force


Using intention to align the physical body mechanics but intention doesnot generate or deal with force directly.



4. It is a simple process of using the posture to emulate a force transfer rod via intention which can be describe accurately what it is and how to reproduce . Since intention and alignment of posture are two dominant elements.

One can learn it within a few mins, knows what it is, and reproduce it precisely.


5. As above, mind has four basic function, each of them has their purpose. These four are accord with the ancient practice of explore the mind and body boundary , such as the Buddhist tools or technology, the Samantha which is dropping the intention, visualization, and thinking to enter the awareness. And the vippasana which is using the intention, visualization, and thinking. While deep within awareness.


6. I have no issue of Tst finding, in fact I respect and praise his hard work to get this far by his own. While I get the easy path via the 1850 kuen kuit . Nor I put him down. I am just trying to clear up what is what so that wcner clear about what type of phenomena it is.

That is because when one get into the internal art domain, one needs to know what is what. Instead of for example, mind can means lots of things. Is it thinking? Is it intending? Is it visualing? Is it aware? Which mind or Niem one is talking about? If one is not clear which function one cannot make it happen.

How is this type of phenomenon could be applied in real life if one is not even know what it refer too? How can one even make it happen without knowing what it is?

[Paddington]

If everything is about simple physics then we should all learn Kung Fu from Stephen Hawkings.

There is no point watching football, as the winner should be determined in a Lab, not a field.

Look, the physics is as complex as you want to go. A lot of Wing Chun can be accounted for via physics and mathematics accessible to most in the secondary School system in the UK (ages 12-18). To demonstrate some of the key principals you don't need to go much further.

However, if I want to account for, say, reflexes and reactions then I would move beyond simple physics to read articles on the central nervous system and the extent to which connective tissue operates as a signaling network in the human body, much like the central nervous system.

Yes, this last example I cite does add credence to looking at a human as a single embodied unit rather than some transcendent 'mind and body' ala Descartes.

EDIT: Oh, I am working on a mathematical model for aspects of Wing Chun so you will get to read and judge for yourself.

[Hendrik]

My question to the so called Chinese internal artist is always


1, If one cannot describe the process to make it happen, then one don't know it and cannot reproduce it.

2, If one is not even clear on the body joints handling, then one has no basic physical handling.


3, If one is not even know the four mind function, thinking, intending, visualization, and aware , can not enter into any of this Four at will, why bother goes dao, zen, central nervous system......philosphy? Internal art is not a religion or intellectual mind game. But a mind body operation.


4. Things must fit into and satisfy the following three laws, because one deal with force and momentum. These are the nob one turn to play in the domain of momentum and force.

Momentum = mass x velocity
Momentum = force x time
Force = mass x acceleration



Btw.

Wing Chun snake body or snake engine , in the most basic form , is just the training and development of using the four mind function to handle the seven major body joints to produce different force and momentum outcome.

One needs this two keys, the four function of mind and the handling of joints , to enter the door.
Keep it simple.

Look, the physics is as complex as you want to go. A lot of Wing Chun can be accounted for via physics and mathematics accessible to most in the secondary School system in the UK (ages 12-18). To demonstrate some of the key principals you don't need to go much further.

However, if I want to account for, say, reflexes and reactions then I would move beyond simple physics to read articles on the central nervous system and the extent to which connective tissue operates as a signaling network in the human body, much like the central nervous system.

Yes, this last example I cite does add credence to looking at a human as a single embodied unit rather than some transcendent 'mind and body' ala Descartes.

EDIT: Oh, I am working on a mathematical model for aspects of Wing Chun so you will get to read and judge for yourself.

[Hendrik]

Some often ask me, so what can you do? Can you do better then xyz....etc.


They are missing my point,


My point is

First, one must know exactly the process of how to reproduce the phenomena .
Then, it is just a matter of practice, everyone can do it and how good they are depend on how much they practice.

Second, knowing the process and physics , one will know the boundary condition, assumption or Innetial condition, and the limit. One then knows how far this thing can fly or how fast, or how powerful it can be at its max. By then, one knows is it usefull in the application and can it do the job ?

With the first and second. One knows what it is . One always need to know these in order to evolve to better, also one always need to know these to break it. And there is why the fun is, the game of silva, one hand destruction, the other hand creation.


Some just not use to this type of thinking .

[poulperadieux]

Using TST making the weight scale rising demo as example.

No no no...

Let's meet people and ask them what niem Lik is for them.

Youtube isn't real people...

What you "understood" about TST conception of niem lik isn't what I was taught...
Maybe I wasn't taught on youtube, that could be the start of an explaination...

[poulperadieux]

First, one must know exactly the process of how to reproduce the phenomena .
Then, it is just a matter of practice, everyone can do it and how good they are depend on how much they practice.

FIRST, One must do.

By DOING, one can really Understand.

"Nothing really becomes real until you felt it" John Keats.

by the way:

« Long Bridge energy is not really a strategy, it’s more a state of awareness of the connexion of the body and the mind, what I think TST calls « niem lik ».

The strategy to discover the long bridge is proper form in the legs, than correct visualisation training, the intention you make in your moves.
For example, in the last saam pai fut in the end of the form, just before the bong sao, if no one says to you that when you go palm up than you do jum sao, you must, not only copy the move, but also visualize a constant forward spiral, you miss the move entirely, and it’s purpose.
Your move will be palm up, and then you will rotate the joints of the forearm to present the edge, you will miss the forward pressure you get when you squeeze the articulations and the muscles in a constant forward spiral, and that without moving an inch.

Some people call it internal work, some call it internal energy.

For me, it’s moving the basic activation of the muscles, being ready in the proper way without movement to be seen from the outside.
That can only be worked with visualisation because the brain is able to activate specific groups of muscles if trained… Niem lik.

So, when you have long bridge, witch is cultivated everyday in the way you do your form, the most difficult thing is not to turn it on, but to switch it of, it becomes a habit, it becomes part of how you move.

Than over that, you can apply any strategy you like.

For your last question, when you work the long bridge, the tansition from the short to the long distance must be felt, from your sensations, and from the guy who test it by touching you point of view, continuous. »

And an article about the long Bridge.


Niem lik is about dealin with your opponent force AND force generation using visualisation, mind set and the knowledge of bones, articulation, muscle physiology, fascias...

artcile in english and french :

http://poulperadieux.com/2012/06/03/...ng-the-bridge/

[Hendrik]

Why go indirect?

Get direct from TST himself , what is it and his coaching , no need for guessing, no need others imagination.

The above view of mine is based on TST own words and action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_V5-IUw7s0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eNBcb0Sxqw

No no no...

Let's meet people and ask them what niem Lik is for them.

Youtube isn't real people...

What you "understood" about TST conception of niem lik isn't what I was taught...
Maybe I wasn't taught on youtube, that could be the start of an explaination...